RayIN
Veteran Member
Plus, I'd be contacting the state realtors assn. and Attorneys General office.
Mining Agreements
- Thread starter NorTracNY
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paulsharvey
Super Member
Most offer letters will mention mineral rights, timber rights, ect. Its not all negative though, but you do need to know everything to make an informed offer.
That 10 acres of potential mine may be an open pit for your entire life, or they may have to restore it (regrade, potential fill the pits, or atleast spread the over burden, possibly plant trees, ect). What might be 10 trucks per day now, could be 100 trucks in 3 years, or it might not.
How does an open pit mine work with only mineral rights? Around here, the sand or rock mines are generally owned or leased, mineral and surface together. Im guessing they can force the issue, as it is their sand/gravel; but its your surface. Im Guessing if it went to arbitration, you would be forced to allow it, and they would be forced to pay for the cost of the lost use of the surface land, in its current state.
That 10 acres of potential mine may be an open pit for your entire life, or they may have to restore it (regrade, potential fill the pits, or atleast spread the over burden, possibly plant trees, ect). What might be 10 trucks per day now, could be 100 trucks in 3 years, or it might not.
How does an open pit mine work with only mineral rights? Around here, the sand or rock mines are generally owned or leased, mineral and surface together. Im guessing they can force the issue, as it is their sand/gravel; but its your surface. Im Guessing if it went to arbitration, you would be forced to allow it, and they would be forced to pay for the cost of the lost use of the surface land, in its current state.
paulsharvey
Super Member
So, yes, I Chat'd it, But I also followed the source link to DEC website.
So, it looks like the pit has to be reclaimed, and they will purchase a Bond to ensure it. Now, its a 5 year operating permit, but with the potential to renew. So, with that you can pretty much bet it will be atleast 5 years before reclaimed.
Now, here's the part people dont often talk about; they Likely will ask for a surface lease, with terms better than the current land use. So, if its pasture, and thats going annual lease is say $120/acre/year; they will Likely offer far more. Like 10x, just to avoid the fight, and honestly, to avoid problems. With it having a bond to reclaim, if you could get, say, $6,000/year; some access roads, or say, $0.25/ton, that sounds like an income stream, and a plus
So, it looks like the pit has to be reclaimed, and they will purchase a Bond to ensure it. Now, its a 5 year operating permit, but with the potential to renew. So, with that you can pretty much bet it will be atleast 5 years before reclaimed.
Now, here's the part people dont often talk about; they Likely will ask for a surface lease, with terms better than the current land use. So, if its pasture, and thats going annual lease is say $120/acre/year; they will Likely offer far more. Like 10x, just to avoid the fight, and honestly, to avoid problems. With it having a bond to reclaim, if you could get, say, $6,000/year; some access roads, or say, $0.25/ton, that sounds like an income stream, and a plus
paulsharvey
Super Member
Now, another thing, a 10 acre sand mine is a big borrow pit, but a tiny sand mine. There is a big difference. Borrow pit, for fill dirt, may operate every day, or only a few days per week, and likely has 1-3 operators and then lease truck dump trucks hauling.
Sand mine, could be dredge, 24/7, hauling 100s of trucks and/or rail cars.
So, 1st picture is a medium-large sand mine, about 900 acres of active open pit sand mine, dredged below the water table.
The 2nd picture is a borrow pit for clean fill for building pads, embankment, ect, all above the water table, about 32 acres.
The 3rd picture is a reclaimed borrow pit, right north of that other one; grassed, trees growing and a large pond/small lake, that "looks" natural.
Sand mine, could be dredge, 24/7, hauling 100s of trucks and/or rail cars.
So, 1st picture is a medium-large sand mine, about 900 acres of active open pit sand mine, dredged below the water table.
The 2nd picture is a borrow pit for clean fill for building pads, embankment, ect, all above the water table, about 32 acres.
The 3rd picture is a reclaimed borrow pit, right north of that other one; grassed, trees growing and a large pond/small lake, that "looks" natural.
MAX-24-Dean
Veteran Member
Be very careful, and get a legal counsel is what I would recommend.
Permits to open pit mine here, that were pulled in the 1950's and 1960's are still grandfathered for enviromental impact. In other words no further reviews and no one has any say on what time the mine runs or where the materials go or how much they take in one day. Only condition is dust mitigation must be performed. One barge a week leaves the site. There will be a 240 acre pit next to the river when everything is extracted. Currently at 160 acres mined. All because final permits were pulled early 1961.
Find out every legal detail possible before proceeding.
Permits to open pit mine here, that were pulled in the 1950's and 1960's are still grandfathered for enviromental impact. In other words no further reviews and no one has any say on what time the mine runs or where the materials go or how much they take in one day. Only condition is dust mitigation must be performed. One barge a week leaves the site. There will be a 240 acre pit next to the river when everything is extracted. Currently at 160 acres mined. All because final permits were pulled early 1961.
Find out every legal detail possible before proceeding.
Thanks again for the input of various nature. We are continuing to investigate.
One thing that is clear is the legal aspects of the deed are messy. In '09 the parcel included over double the acres. We are looking at the West part of that parcel. So between '09 and '18, that owner split the property and sold the East lot to the mining company.
There is a 7 year lease that occurred in '09 with the current owner of the time and the company that is leasing the adjacent property. At the time of the lease was for 45 acres and the property was over double the size. In '18 the owner gave the deed to the property we are looking at to an new owner, but excluded mineral rights of 11 acres on the west side of the current grave pit road in the SE corner of our parcel. The mining road defined the property line. The problem is that the road comes in from the north and doesn't get to the SE corner of the parcel I'm looking at. In '23 the deed transferred to the current sellers with the same language.
So currently, I have nothing which shows the original 7yr lease lease was extended. The deed says the mineral rights of the vague 11 acres was excluded with the last two sales, but we actually don't see who would owns them. Maybe the owner from '08. Right now we are pushing for the seller's attorney to correct/figure things out.
One thing that is clear is the legal aspects of the deed are messy. In '09 the parcel included over double the acres. We are looking at the West part of that parcel. So between '09 and '18, that owner split the property and sold the East lot to the mining company.
There is a 7 year lease that occurred in '09 with the current owner of the time and the company that is leasing the adjacent property. At the time of the lease was for 45 acres and the property was over double the size. In '18 the owner gave the deed to the property we are looking at to an new owner, but excluded mineral rights of 11 acres on the west side of the current grave pit road in the SE corner of our parcel. The mining road defined the property line. The problem is that the road comes in from the north and doesn't get to the SE corner of the parcel I'm looking at. In '23 the deed transferred to the current sellers with the same language.
So currently, I have nothing which shows the original 7yr lease lease was extended. The deed says the mineral rights of the vague 11 acres was excluded with the last two sales, but we actually don't see who would owns them. Maybe the owner from '08. Right now we are pushing for the seller's attorney to correct/figure things out.
paulsharvey
Super Member
Yes, ive seen similar where a big parcel has an easement, its broken up, and parcel A and K then show the easement, and years later its all recombined, as a new parcel, and the easement, still legal and valid, doesnt show up on the new parcel. So, the buyer would have no way to know.
Guess thats what title insurance is for
