Mini-split heat pump died

[Overtaxed]

I think what really gets people about some of this work is that it's entirely possible to do it yourself in a lot of cases, but not legal (in the AC world). So you're kind of locked in, unless you have a friend who can buy the gasses for you and has the gauges, to whatever your local guy(s) want to charge. It's a built in "moat" around the market, and, while good for businesses/business owners, is frustrating to skilled DIY'ers who would prefer to spend 1800 instead of 4K and spend a day brazing and running power lines.

Where I used to live, you basically couldn't touch your main electrical box without violating code. I wanted to get a 220 circuit run into my garage for a large AC; about 20ft from the breaker box (and yes, there was a space left in the box). But you're not allowed to do that in the area, so I called an electrician. Best quote I got was around 2K. For what, to me, would be maybe 4 hours work and 100 bucks in materials. But I couldn't do it myself, even though I was entirely capable, because of the laws regarding electric in a residence in that area. The "moat" is what made it so expensive; the electrician knew, if I wanted it done, I was going to have to have him do it. No competition from DIY or an unlicensed handyman. In my new home, I had a 2400 sq/ft pole barn put up, 200A service dropped and wired the entire building myself for about 2K. With about 15 220 drops, a 100A drop to the other side of the bulding, all in conduit, all up to code. And I had an electrician come out for a day and help me which is included in that price. Because there's no "moat" here. Homeowners are allowed to do their own work. Terrible for electricians, great for homeowners with the skills. And I suspect that a lot of us fall into that 2nd category. I know how to wire up equipment correctly. I know how to braze. I have all the tools to run conduit/disconnects. Shoot, I have the 8g wire sitting on spools in my barn. Cost me about nothing over the price of a unit to put it in, and wouldn't take long either because I have all the tools and know how to do it. And, in that situation, hiring it done starts to look real expensive.

Not to say that it's gouging, it may be or may not be, but it's hard to compare the price of do it yourself when you the skills/tools to having a professional do it.

 

[kenmac]

Reminds me of when I was in business. I would give prices for an install, A/C unit, or plumbing job. I would always hear. WOW ! that's expensive. Well, do it yourself then if you have the tools and know how.


When I installed units. It was mine for a year. if it required me to remove it and install a new unit, it was on me. So, I had to cover myself.
Now if you wanted a unit without me covering the entire install for a year. I would give you a lower price.

If you can purge your lines with nitrogen, braze lines (if need be) with nitrogen flowing. pull 400 micron vacuum, etc. then have at it. All it can cost you if you screw up is another $1800.00 unit.

Perhaps the manufacture will offer tech advice /support to you if there is an issue you can't
figure out

Good luck with your install

 

[LittleBill21]

I think what really gets people about some of this work is that it's entirely possible to do it yourself in a lot of cases, but not legal (in the AC world). So you're kind of locked in, unless you have a friend who can buy the gasses for you and has the gauges, to whatever your local guy(s) want to charge. It's a built in "moat" around the market, and, while good for businesses/business owners, is frustrating to skilled DIY'ers who would prefer to spend 1800 instead of 4K and spend a day brazing and running power lines.

Where I used to live, you basically couldn't touch your main electrical box without violating code. I wanted to get a 220 circuit run into my garage for a large AC; about 20ft from the breaker box (and yes, there was a space left in the box). But you're not allowed to do that in the area, so I called an electrician. Best quote I got was around 2K. For what, to me, would be maybe 4 hours work and 100 bucks in materials. But I couldn't do it myself, even though I was entirely capable, because of the laws regarding electric in a residence in that area. The "moat" is what made it so expensive; the electrician knew, if I wanted it done, I was going to have to have him do it. No competition from DIY or an unlicensed handyman. In my new home, I had a 2400 sq/ft pole barn put up, 200A service dropped and wired the entire building myself for about 2K. With about 15 220 drops, a 100A drop to the other side of the bulding, all in conduit, all up to code. And I had an electrician come out for a day and help me which is included in that price. Because there's no "moat" here. Homeowners are allowed to do their own work. Terrible for electricians, great for homeowners with the skills. And I suspect that a lot of us fall into that 2nd category. I know how to wire up equipment correctly. I know how to braze. I have all the tools to run conduit/disconnects. Shoot, I have the 8g wire sitting on spools in my barn. Cost me about nothing over the price of a unit to put it in, and wouldn't take long either because I have all the tools and know how to do it. And, in that situation, hiring it done starts to look real expensive.

Not to say that it's gouging, it may be or may not be, but it's hard to compare the price of do it yourself when you the skills/tools to having a professional do it.

you can buy the gas and gauges right off ebay. fixed my central ac myself.

 

[TnAndy]

Good luck with your install

Thanks.

The first two went fine. There was no brazing of lines involved.....I merely cut the lines to length, flared the ends with good flaring tool, torqued to specs with a torque wrench and crow's foot.....and that was it. Neither of the Pro's I had out to vac the lines (I didn't see buying a pump for very intermittent use) did a nitrogen purge, just pulled a vacuum, waited a short while (personally, I'd have waited longer), then turned the gas loose and fired it up.

 

[ultrarunner]

I've put in several conventional systems for family... the owner of the HVAC company had no problems coming out to commission the unit and the 3 hours he charged was well worth it... these all needed extended line sets.

The last job he said his guys won't work in attics in the heat we had that week... and it was hot!

Win/Win as I see it.

 

[BAP]

This may be a stupid question but instead of bashing the guy that gave you a quote, why aren稚 you getting quotes from other HVAC people in your area to see if it is out of line? He痴 not forcing you to buy from him. A smart person will get more than one quote on any large purchase no matter what it is.

 

[kenmac]

Thanks.

The first two went fine. There was no brazing of lines involved.....I merely cut the lines to length, flared the ends with good flaring tool, torqued to specs with a torque wrench and crow's foot.....and that was it. Neither of the Pro's I had out to vac the lines (I didn't see buying a pump for very intermittent use) did a nitrogen purge, just pulled a vacuum, waited a short while (personally, I'd have waited longer), then turned the gas loose and fired it up.

So, no micron gauge was used during the vacuum process ?
I have seen this done also, but I wouldn't want these persons installing my equipment
It's fine until something happens , you need warranty and they test the oil for contaminants

 

[Carl_NH]

The OP is making a couple of assumptions--the installer may not be getting a good deal on the equipment from LG. His price may be close to what the consumer pays. There is a good chance he is paying $1400 for the equipment (30% off of list-which is fairly standard for a rep). If he wants to make 50% margin on the materials, his price to the consumer would be $2800, which leaves $1500 for the labor.

We had three Mitsubishi hyper heat single head units installed in last three years - 2 9K (30.5 SEER and 1 12K (26 SEER) over a period of two years individual installations and all less than 25' straight forward piping runs - Owner/installers name was Andy too - and he has installed over 1000 units - his installed price averaged $3200 each - the wiring was all done with a disconnect at each location - he did the rest. On average he was here about 6 hours to install each one - a full day if you count the pickup of the units etc.

He pulled a deep vacuum on all the units and ensured the drain was working, painted the plastic ducting to match the house (my paint) so its these little things that IMO make a difference. Since that time I have referred him four other customers and they are happy customers now too.

Does he make a ton of $ no ($800-1000 net each unit after paying himself) but what he gets in repeat business and referrals due to attention to detail and good prices keeps his company going.

 

[ustmd]

Break it down anyway you want....the OP was not going to pay two guys $2500 for less than a day's labor. The HVAC guy, after having come initially on a call to service the old unit, then coming to realize the OP was not the average consumer, should have made a reasonable bid on the job....say $1000 over costs (which I may well have paid)....for a </days work, and saved the higher profit jobs for those that are more clueless.

And by the way, IF his cost was $1400, (your figure) a 50% markup would be $2100......not $2800. Perhaps his math was faulty as well..........

You are confusing margin and mark up.

Margin = your profit based on the price of the product you sell less the cost of goods sold.

Mark up = amount you increase the cost of an item you purchase to achieve a target margin %.

They are not the same.

To achieve a 50% margin, you need to have a 100% mark up. As I said, if the installer was targeting a 50% MARGIN, he would need to double the price of the materials to $2800 ($2800 sell price - $1400 cost = $1400 profit. $1400 divided by $2800 = %50) . Using your 50% mark up number, the installer "only" makes a 33% margin ($700 profit on $2100 sale) for the products.

 

[Sigarms]

We had three Mitsubishi hyper heat single head units installed in last three years - 2 9K (30.5 SEER and 1 12K (26 SEER) over a period of two years individual installations and all less than 25' straight forward piping runs

When it comes to ductless mini split systems, SEER rating (AHRI rated) means little next to nothing, particularly when it comes to an inverter compressor (which AHRI is still trying to figure out). What matters is the capacity given for both cooling and heating loads and at what determined outdoor temperature while maintaining a set indoor temperature. Generally speaking, this information is found in the engineering manual which a lot of people don't find very interesting and marketing people really have NO clue LOL.

The added reality is since you're in NH, SEER really is a waste of info because the reason why you got the FE/FH hyperheat system is for the heating capacity at lower outdoor temperatures. Ironcially enough, big seller for heating in NC as well. Had a engineer homeowner up in the mountains unhappy with his system. Reality is once it got below 30 outside, the temp couldn't get over 67 degrees inside (engineers are great for making up spreadsheets LOL). Installed a hyperheat outdoor unit, and the problem was solved (capacity is determined by the outdoor unit, not the indoor unit, but manufacturers rate them as a system so that's what you have to buy).