Mini Hay Balers

[VirginiaEd]

I have six small hay fields on my farm. Total hay acres is 21. Until now I've had the hay custom cut, but am going to change my operation to include rotational grazing and some pasture fed beef finishing.

Previously the haybine and baler were NH and were pulled with a big MF. Sometimes, turning in the fields was a problem because of the field's layout. I plan to put in several temporary cross fences in these fields and thereby create grazing padocks that will allow stockpiling and strip grazing control.

In the spring and at other times of the year I plan to cut and clip the hay in the padocks and store it for winter use as needed, but expect that my stockpiled hay will carry me most of the winter. I expect the mowing, raking, and baling turning problems to be annoying if I use the larger equipment.

I've been looking at the Star MRB0850 mini round baler (Japanese) sold by Agriquip. Its a twine tie unit. The Agriquip website is www.agriquip.com and they're located down in Georgia. I don't know if there are other Star dealers around the country. The MRB0850 baler is rated for 18-30 HP compact tractors.

I have a small 27 HP 3 cylinder compact tractor that I think would work well with this baler. The bales are small enough and can be handled just like larger size bales with a spear, etc. I think the unit is small enough that the turning problems would be eliminated. Also, the bales are probably light enough that loading, storing and handling would be fairly easy. Also, I'd like to think the bales would work well for horse owners who might want something akin to a "lady" bale if I were to sell the bales or do some custom baling.

Does anyone have any experience with mini hay balers? Has anyone seen the Star machines in operation? Being Japanese machines, I'm guessing they are fairly well made, but after-sale service and support is always an issue. Does anyone know of other mini balers sized to work behind a compact tractor?

Agriquip is suppose to have the Star balers on display at the NFMS in Louisville next week. If anyone happens to look them over, I'd appreciate opinions on the units.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[HayDR]

Ed,
Many farmers have the same problem as you do. Currently the cost of the small Star balers is expensive. You have the same surface are spoilage on large bales as you do on small round bales left outside. This means that you will have a significant amount of hay spoilage with the small 400-500 Lb bales. You will have to store these bales inside to minimize the weather spoilage. Currently various MFG's make 4x4 & 4x5 balers that can be operated with a 35-40 HP utility size tractor. These 4x4 & 4x5 balers range from $9,000-14,000. For the small 400 lb round baler to be cost effective my customers tell me it needs to be in the $5000-7000 range. Check your prices on the Star balers and see they are expensive. There are some MFG's working on smaller 500 Lbs. balers but their production will not show up until late 2005.

 

[VirginiaEd]

Mark,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I noticed that new Star balers seem somewhat overpriced. However, I also noticed they have a slightly used demo unit available on their website for about $13,000.

I will be able to store the bales under cover, so spoilage won't be a problem. Yes, I expect Vermeer, JD and NH will eventually get their act together and offer less expensive units for small operators. I suspect they are starting to recognize that they are losing business to foreign manufacturers. Perhaps they are also starting to recognize that small operators, who don't live at the farm subsidy trough, represent an increasing and significant market share.

I can certainly use the bigger tractor and larger baler to do my work, but the lady who keeps the books encourages me to be conservative. Otherwise I don't get any lunch. Lower costs and easier field operations are important.

Ed

 

[jimg]

Jinma makes one but I can't figure out if anyone imports it or the cost. Minibalers seem to be real big in the UK and I *think* europe as a whole. I suppose the reason they aren't popular here is b/c most operations that bale hay use the bigger equipment.

 

[HayDR]

The Mini Hay balers are used primarily in haylage production, wet hay. Many of the wrapper MFG's make a wrapper for the mini round and square bales.

 

[horse_guy]

I was checking out the small japanese balers too but they are just too pricey. I only need to make enough hay for 5 horses to get me through the winter. I ended up buying an old New Holland 68 Hayliner for $325.00 and it's in good condition. NH rates this baler at 15 pto hp, they had an optional wisconsin air cooled moter that ran it which was 15 hp. They manual shows a CA Allis baling hay. There are alot of these older balers around and they are cheap especially if they don't have a thrower on them. I will probably bale less than 1000 bales this summer so it will work just fine for me.

 

[5030]

horse guy:

Wait until the knotter takes a dump and you have forage down and it looks like rain any time now.

Have fun.

 

[Woodbeef]

With only 21 acres and 6 fields why install permanent fencing?

 

[VirginiaEd]

jimg,

Yes, mini balers are used extensively in the UK. Probably used for the same reason I'm thinking about using one; smaller fields and lower operating costs. I think one brand is Rekorder(?) but I've never seen anything about US dealers or importers. Also, I think the Italians use mini balers.

Woodbeef,

As I mentioned in my post, I'm putting in a rotational grazing system on these six fields as a pasture finished grass fed beef operation. This will be something of an experiment for me and reportedly is a very cost effective way to finish beef vis-a-vis corn fed finishing. If successful, then in 3-4 years I'll scale up to much larger fields.

With the increased demand for leaner meat, the BSE thing, and more small plant meat processing in this area, it looks like a risk worth taking here. I've already received orders for cattle and they won't even be finished for another 18-24 months. A few other beef producers around here have been successful using controlled rotational grazing. One guy said he could always sell more cattle than he had and the prices were always high. Most cattle raised this way don't see the inside of a sale barn. They are typically sold privately or contracted to brokers for upscale restaurants or grocery stores.

There is a fellow who lives about 100 miles from me who rotational grazes holstein heifers for a dairy in Florida. The heifers are brought up to Virginia in tractor-trailer loads, kept here for 7-8 months and trucked back down to Florida. He averages 120 heifers on about 100 acres of paddocks. He does feed them silage and forage during the winter months in a barn because he is located at a higher elevation and receives quite a bit of snow.

I'm originally from Nebraska and we raised thousands of corn fed cattle in our farm feedlot, but the stock spent most of the winter under crowded conditions eating corn and alfalfa. Very expensive finishing process. Rotational grazing and finishing on grass is significantly less expensive than feedlot finishing. The folks in Australia have been doing it forever. The Japanese and European markets always exhibit strong demand for Australian beef.

The move to lower fat diets in the US is increasingly popular as the baby boomers get older and fatter and the kids waddle out of McDonalds. And, for the first time in decades, the demand for beef in the US has been higher than supply. That probably won't continue too long, because fewer heifers are being taken to market which suggests that higher beef prices are encouraging smaller farms to jump back into the cattle business. The return of imported beef from Canada and South America will also push prices back down.

Rotational grazing and strip controls probably won't work where the weather is too harsh, but here in Central Virginia our winters are fairly mild. With proper grasses, legumes and pasture management, cattle can be grazed all year round here except for a few days when there is snow cover more than a few inches deep. Even then, the snow doesn't remain on the ground very long in our valley.

Fences are the key to rotational grazing paddock control. This system is sometimes referred to as cell grazing. In the spring of the year, and at times when the forage gets too tall, the hay is harvested for winter use. Fescue with the endophyte fungus generates heat in cattle, which is ok in colder months. In the latter part of the summer, fescue is stockpiled. This means the hay isn't cut and is allowed to grow until earlier winter, at which time the cattle are turned onto the cells in a controlled manner. My rule-of-thumb planning is one steer per acre. That number may vary depending somewhat on the weather.

The permanent fences keep the cattle out of the road, out of the creeks, and out of the neighbors fields. More importantly, the cross fences keep the cattle out of other cells that are recovering from prior grazing. The front fences are board fencing along the road and the back fences are wire. The cross fences are T-post with double strand hot wire. The cross fences are only semi-permanent. If I want to control grazing even tighter, I'll use temporary hot wires. Each paddock shares half of a 300 gallon stock watering tank.

In my case I intend to rotate the cattle among several cells for the spring and early summer months. Those cells have fescue, orchardgrass, alfalfa, and clover. In the hot summer I'll move them to other paddocks containing hot weather grasses like caucasian bluestem and perl. Obviously, it takes a lot longer to bring Angus steers to 1150-1200 lbs with this approach than with traditional corn-fed feedlot finishing.

Fresh water, mineral, and salt, are always available free choice. Fly control is also important, so paddocks receive a round with the pasture drag when the cattle are moved. Also, the mineral and salt blocks are moved and the fly rub is on skids and moved also. Daily gain is projected to average 1.2-1.5 lbs/day. Some protein supplements when needed, but never any growth hormones, anibiotics, ruminants, etc. Required vaccinations, castration, worm control, and precise record keeping are important. Last year I completed the USDA Beef Quality Assurance (BQA) program, not so much because I needed to know a whole lot more about raising cattle, but because a BQA certification results in a higher sale price at market time.

For those people raising stockers around here, it is almost becoming a requirement of feedlot buyers that cattle purchased in Virginia destined for Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado and Pennsylvania feedlots be raised by a BQA licensed producer.

I'll be putting calves on the cells at 400-450 lbs and selling them at 1150-1200 lbs. The hay cut in the spring will be high quality. I'm not trying to achieve organic beef certification and use inorganic fertilizer and lime. But, premium beef raised in a natural environment sells very well. Its probably a perception thing as much as anything else, but more and more, consumers are buying meat, dairy and vegetables in local markets. They like to know where their food is coming from.

People buying private beef sometimes drive past the fields where the cattle are being raised to look at the livestock. I guess it gives them a sense of connection with the earth or something. I know families periodically stop along the road and look over the cow-calf operations in the area. The kids enjoys watching the antics of the calves.

I'll clip the fescue throughout the year to lower the endophyte problem and the other grasses and legumes growing with the fescue should minimize the heat problem associated with the endophyte fungus. Clipping fescue before the seed heads are formed significantly reduces the endophyte problem.

Cattle like to top-graze their forage instead of having to hunt for it. Forage in a rotational grazing setup allows them to top graze. Given their choice, cattle like to eat the good stuff and trample the rest. I intend to move them to another cell about every seven days, and allow each cell to recover for about 21-30 days. Except for the spring flush, the forage is seldom allowed to grow higher than 8-9 inches and not grazed lower than 3 inches.

I don't know if this approach would work for bison or not? Did you know that when the settlers first came to Virginia that bison roamed this area?

Ed

 

[Egon]

VirginiaEd:

Nice informative post.

From what little I know the paddock rotation feeding is very efficient. That is most likely the way Bison grazed as the herds were always moving. This was also the way shepherds of past herded and grazed their sheep.

Another benefit may be reduced grain cropping costs.

From the sounds of things it may be a long time before You see large quantities of Canadian beef.

Best to you in your operation.

Egon

 

[Woodbeef]

Sure perimiter permanent fence make sense. But if you are also going to cut these fields why not use movable fencing inside of each field? You are only raising feeders which can easily be trained to electric fence(which you have already eluded to) and will be marketed at what 18-24 months of age maximum? As long as you figure out to move them before the feed is gone you should have no troubles. It works for buffalo,so why not cows? The whole secret to rotational grazing is not to over graze the fields,and move the animals before they move themselves.

 

[cowboydoc]

Although you're already set up Ed other people might not be. There is a program with the government called EQIP. They will help you setup a rotational grazing system like this and pay you to put the ground into a rotational grazing system for 10 years. We recently put 1800 acres into this. They paid 50-75% cost share on watering systems, building four ponds, all of our fencing, all of our planting, liming, and fertilizer, and weed control. Then for putting it in the program for 10 years they paid us $40/acre plus a sign up bonus. YOu can't raise crops on this grazing ground but you can hay it as long as you include it in your grazing system. The only thing I would ad to what Ed said is to put out protein tubs. With the protein tubs you will get much better gains. There are organic protein producers out there so you can use the protein tubs and still maintain your organic status.

The only downside to this is if you are a big producer. It's not too difficult to find a market for a limited # of cattle but for alot of cattle it's more difficult and time consuming. You have to dedicate a good amount of hours to the rotational system. As with all things business related the extra costs, decreased gains, increased labor, etc. all has to be figured in. When we've done the math it works out about the same. Where it's going to pay is if you really can get more cattle on the same # of acres. We're working with the local university on a research project. We've detailed records before we started the rotational grazing and now with it we'll see where the bottom lines are. Hopefully it will be as good as the claims. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[kensfarm]

Cowboydoc.. is that EQIP program at the state level.. or national level?

 

[cowboydoc]

EQIP is a federal program but it's distributed at the local, county, level.

 

[rambler]

It seems you are quite familiar with the livestock game.

I just don't see those mini round balers as being very efficient or ecconomical. To manuver, you are bound by the pto knuckles, the slightly smaller baler won't manuver all that much better. You will use more twine or netwrap on smaller bales. You will spend a lot more time transporting to your storage & feeding locations - time is money. They cost more that a good used 5x6 round baler, and you can get a good used 100 hp loader tractor to handle the bales (and baler) for less than your compact tractor cost. You'll be stuck with a round baler with limited resale & parts availability - which can be real costly in making hay.

I can understand the part of selling to horsey people, can be profitable if you find that market & offer a unique & desiarable bale to people with disposable income, but if you primarily will be using the hay yourself, it would be much more ecconomical & timely to get a bigger slightly used setup for the same money - it will run cheaper while you own it, and can be resold for about what it cost you, little depreciation.

Just my opinion.

--->Paul

 

[MFMan]

If it's compact hay equipment you're looking for check out Massey Ferguson's new website! Their new line of haytools only require minimal horsepower and look great!
http://www.masseyferguson.agcocorp.com/

 

[5030]

I don't want to start a flame war so Richard, don't take this wrong or Woodbeef either, for that matter.

Horse people.....I hate to sell them hay. They, for the most part don't have the slightest inclination what good hay as it relates to horses is. Not only do they, in general, buy hay for their animals that is too high in alfalfa content, they want dairy quality hay for a bargain basement price.

I also get a charge of the John Lyons type in the Wrangler jeans and western coat looking at hay that is so high in moisture content that the center of the bale is probably over 100 degrees and thinking how they can screw the seller down to that low price. Just the type of forage to feed an idle horse. No wonder large animal veterinarians all seem to have good practices. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I much rather deal with livestock operations. Livestock operators know the value of good forage and are willing to compensate you for it.

If anyone thinks it's cute and/or profitable to roll mini-bales and sell them to horsey people, I have a seat on the next space shot available for the small price of a million bucks. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[VirginiaEd]

Woodbeef

Yes, the cross fences are used to control the grazing process. My cross fences are T-posts with double hot wires and by most accounts are considered somewhat movable. The idea of using T-posts is to section off equal sized areas for paddocks. For additional control or to change the grazing pattern in a paddock, I'll use the little step-in posts with a hot wire as you suggest.

I'm also able to use cross fencing to keep the cattle out of certain areas like wood groves which are also personal woodlots, and out of swampy areas. Nothing better than cutting up trees while wading through a year's worth of cow pies. Also, its very important to keep cattle away from dried wild cherry tree leaves because they contain cyanide. In both the woodlot and swamp areas the cattle like to lounge around while making a concentrated manure mess.

Cowboydoc

I've heard about the EQIP program, but thought it required a large amount of acreage in order to participate. There hasn't been much discussion about the program at the cattle meetings I've attended here. Usually, I'm not one to look to the government for funding anything, but as you know, putting in large rotational grazing facilities involves investing a serious amount of money. That's one of my main reasons for using an experimental approach. You know the old adage, "If you want to make a small fortune in the cattle business -- start with a large one." I'd like to only lose my t-shirt and not the entire shirt off my back.

Do you know why Uncle Sam is so interested in supporting rotational grazing programs? Does the USDA feel guilty? Is the government trying to make ranchers and non-grain producers feel better, and make up for years of giving most of the subsidy money to grain commodities and other agribusiness special interests? Are they working with the FDA on the national obesity problem or what? I expect that folks like Dekalb, ADM, and Monsanto won't be too supportive of rotated grass finished beef programs. Other than a 10-year requirement, what are the other strings? I think the CRP was a 10-year program, but had several strings attached. For EQIP, do you have to pledge your first born to the feds? Does it sound like I'm looking for some catch in my government's EQIP program? I have no problem with the 10-year commitment. One doesn't make a sizable investment and expect to be out in the short term. Like you, I plan to be in it for more than 10 years anyway.

I've looked at the big producer issue. I'm somewhat lucky in that I live within 500 miles of 70% of the US population and lots of big city snooty restaurants. Also, I live close to some well-heeled communities where they are very health aware and strongly support local agriculture producers. Both the restaurants and the clientel want what you have.

Are you BQA licensed or do you private sell or participate in any of the special beef sales? Do you use a cattle sale broker? With 1800 head on graze, I'd bet you a cold drink on a hot day that you could increase your average sale prices by at least 4%-5% just by being BQA licensed. At least those are the numbers presented by the USDA experts around here and backed up by BQA stocker sales to feedlots, mostly in Pennsylvania. Conversations I've listened to suggest that the same numbers, and better, carry over to pasture finished cattle. Special sales and brokered deals can probably generate even better prices.

Its been my observation that most rotation-grazed pasture finished beef cattle aren't seen or sold at your local sale barns or stockyards. If you are grazing those 1800 critters in Iowa, I'd seriously doubt the buyers from IBP would do much better than normal fat cattle prices. Has it been your experience that the big packing house buyers from Sioux City, KC and elsewhere are paying top prices for high quality cattle? Or do they have their hand on your wallet like they did when we operated our feedlot? If so, put 'em in a panic by casually letting them know that you're looking into placing your cattle in a special sale, going private, or using a snooty restaurant broker. Watch their eyes light up. Help them remember that grass-fed finished cattle require an 18-24 month investment instead of 12-14 months using growth hormones, antibiotics in stressful crowded feedlots. In short, remind them that clean meat is worth more in the marketplace these days. They know that, but they just aren't quite ready yet to admit it publicly.

Regarding protein tubs. Are you giving protein supplements as free choice or only putting the tubs out periodically. In the past, I used protein periodically to improve my TDN when the hay was less than desired. How much daily gain improvement are you seeing by using increased amounts of protein? Free choice protein for 1800 head of cattle is a lot of protein. They gobble that stuff up fairly quickly. Have you tracked the cost and bottom line improvement? Are you running purebreds, purebred crosses or standard cattle?

Paul

You made some excellent points about mini bales and that's exactly why I'm researching this issue. Handling and transport wouldn't be that hard, because there wouldn't be that many bales involved and more bales can be loaded on a round bale transporter or bale wagon. Yes, the extra twine would be something of a cost factor. Unrolling more bales might be a hassle. I'll probably use a round bale feeder when I have to in the winter, but would probably have to put a couple of bales in each ring.

My little 3 cylinder 27 HP tractor only cost me $2,000 and had less than 800 hours on it. It's cheap to operate too. Sometimes, A 4WD tractor would be better for me in these little Virginia hills, but so far no problems using the smaller machine as a utility tractor. It's also great for getting into tight areas with the brush hog, mower, blade, rake, etc. Around here a used 100 HP tractor with a FEL that's worth owning goes for upwards of $10,000 and that's without 4WD. Bigger machines also eat more fuel and have higher maintenance costs. Parts availability and after-sale service and support does rank right up there as a main concern with new and uknown baler manufacturers.


And, when its all said and done, I may end up with a 4x4 or 4x5 unit. I'm just trying to consider all the different cost options at this point. If I do belly up to the EQIP trough, then maybe I can spend more funds on machinery. What can I say. I'm a prostitute. I work for money.

Ed

 

[cowboydoc]

Ed,

No real strings with EQIP. You just can't raise anything on the ground except hay be it grass or alfalfa and you have to rotate it into your grazing program. You can graze it one time or 10 times. It was probably the easiest program we've ever done. The interest has been around for quite awhile in the govt. program. You're just now starting to see the research out on it. They don't throw alot of money at it, nothing like the grain programs and CRP. And remember most of it is only cost share so they are only paying for 50-75% of the costs and they also cap that.

I don't think any of the suppliers are too worried. There's only so much pasture in the country and there's no way that you're going to do away with the feedlots anytime soon. Just not enough pasture to produce all the cattle this country does. Also I don't believe in completely finishing cattle on grass. And in most parts of the country you can't anyway. In Idaho, where most of our cattle are run, there's no way. Too much snow. Same with Iowa. So you still have to be feeding them at least three or four months of the year even with the best stockpiling.

I also really believe in the protein supplementation. The newer tubs are formulated so that only a certain portion can be eaten per day. The old tubs where they could sit there and lick one clean in a day are a waste. We've seen significan't gains between not feeding the protein tubs and feeding them. My grandfather and uncle are the best at the bottom line. We keep track of every little thing that there is.

Most of the cattle that we're running are in Idaho. I've got about 500 head in Iowa and 1000 head at my place in Idaho. We have quite a few ranches together out there and just put all of our cattle and resources together as a family and run anywhere from 4-5000 head. I'm back and forth quite a bit.
The BQA may help where you are but out west cattle are bought more by your name than by that. Almost all of our cattle are registered and we run through special sales, our own sales, and contracted beef. Smaller lots and culls we'll run through the local sales. But our good stuff goes to the better sales.

 

[jimg]

I know this thread is tending a bit off track but Im learning alot from it! In that vien I'd like to ask a question about the protein blocks. I assume these consist in whole or part of some sort of animal protien. Hasn't animal protein feed been linked to BSE? Also do any of you check on a scheduled basis for BSE in your herd?