Mini Cooper opinions?

SPIKER · Apr 3, 2005

oh a fiero? I wouldn't drive in one if my life depended on it. back in 86 we hit one (the woman slide out in front of my buddy who was driving a 79 thunderbird) the feiro was tore completely in half at the fire wall... the t-bird suffered a cracked parking light and a bumber bent aobut 2" back on the passenger side both were fixed in about 20 min time at school the same day. she was luckly not hurt and I would say the t-bird was going about 30mph at impact. 1st snow of year was icy road and she slid through a stop sign. spun the fiero around and left the front end in the ditch while the back half was setting on the road facing 180 degrees out.

MarkM

Boondox · Apr 3, 2005

( gett he consumer reports vehicle issue..it covers the mini pretty well.
heehaw )

I'm getting conflicting data from CR on the Mini Cooper. One chart shows the overall reliability below average. But if you look in the 2005 Used Car Buyer's Guide they gave it a red ball (way better than average) for the past couple of years.

Anyway, CR often has some serious flaws in their testing methodology in that they have a tendency to not control significant variables. It happens often enough that I've pretty much lost faith in them. Consumer Guide seems to have a better grip on real life usage. I'll have to look up what CG says.

Pete

OkeeDon · Apr 3, 2005

I've learned to faithfully read the Consumer Reports on any product in which I'm interested. Then, whatever it says, I know it's the exact oppposite. It's worked great for me for a number of years.

Durbob · Apr 3, 2005

You might find this interesting. Mini pulls april fools prank

Dur

AndyM · Apr 4, 2005

I've learned to faithfully read the Consumer Reports on any product in which I'm interested. Then, whatever it says, I know it's the exact oppposite. It's worked great for me for a number of years. 

I've learned that they seem to go into their auto tests with a bias that Toyota and Honda is going to win no matter what. There are certain brands they test that it seems like they study much harder, trying to find something wrong with them.

This doesn't just work for automobiles, but on other items too, such as appliances. I don't take stock in anything they say.

If you want a true cross section of opinions, go to one of these types of message boards. You'll get the good and the bad on any item.

Boondox · Apr 4, 2005

( You might find this interesting. Mini pulls april fools prank

Dur )

The company appears to have a great sense of humor. While exploring their Website, I got warnings telling me to go outside and play while the sun shined, that I was spending too much time spodding, and that if I bought a convertible I was required to have the top down 90% of the time...unless I had recently had hair transplants!

Pete

PhilNH5 · Apr 4, 2005

I am amzed at the distrust of CR. I have been getting it for 22 years. I don't always agree with them but I consider them a fair resource. The first one I turn to!!

Reliability comes from reader surveys. You can pick the methodology apart ie only certain people receive the survey and then only certain people bother to reply. But you have responses from across the nation that number in the tens of thousands. That is a sufficient population to draw statisically significant data from.

They do not accept advertising so you they are beholden to no one. Just read any of the enthusiats car mags to see a review that doesn't want to offend any one less the manufacturers stop supplying the mag with cars.

And the suggestion that message boards are a great place for unbiased data prior to purchase! Did you see Bob's post that he shut down. He was trying to compare the big 3 vs other brands. Boy did that get out of hand. He pulled his post and then a moderator eventually shut it down. People joke all the time about flame wars over color or hydro vs shift or synthetic oil vs dino oil. So we acknowledge that we are not always objective. Yet people insist that our anecdotal evidence outweighs the collective data of tens of thousands of CR survey respondents.

Okay I'll get off my soapbox now.

Phil

SnowRidge · Apr 4, 2005

I am amzed at the distrust of CR..............And the suggestion that message boards are a great place for unbiased data prior to purchase! Did you see Bob's post that he shut down. He was trying to compare the big 3 vs other brands. Boy did that get out of hand. He pulled his post and then a moderator eventually shut it down. People joke all the time about flame wars over color or hydro vs shift or synthetic oil vs dino oil. So we acknowledge that we are not always objective. Yet people insist that our anecdotal evidence outweighs the collective data of tens of thousands of CR survey respondents. 

Phil, please think about what you are saying. Essentially you are saying that those of us that rely on user forums for information regarding future purchases are unable to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Personally, when I post, I try to be as objective as possible. I look for this same trait in others when I'm the one looking for information. There are quite a few individuals on this board who are as unbiased in their opinions as can be reasonably expected of any human being. Bird is an excellent example. There are others who seek only to push their own brand/model choice in what is a pretty transparent effort to validate their own decisions.

We can tell them apart -- and the fair minded, honest opinions out number the biased, self servings posts, in my experience. Witness the number of posters who emphasize, "The dealer matters most."

With TBN and other well run forums, we get a variety of opinions. We get healthy public debate. We often get regional opinion, which might be critical if we face a situation unique to our locale.

Contrast that with CR, a publication that gives us statistics and selected verbiage from their respondents. Statistics without full disclosure of who, what, where, why, and how are meaningless. Statistics are easily manipulated -- just ask any politician. Trusting selected quotes is substituting someone else's judgement for your own.

Before the Internet, when research meant a trip to the library, CR was pretty much the only source besides the enthusiast publications, which, as you rightly point out, are suspect because of their advertising ties. Back then, a lot of us had no choice but to rely on CR or the word of our neighbors.

Today, it is different. Today, if I am considering a new diesel truck, for example, I will first ask here on TBN. I will drop in on truck forums. I will scour usenet and the web, but I won't bother with Consumer Reports. There is simply no point in it.

OkeeDon · Apr 4, 2005

There are a few subjects about which I know a lot, and a lot of subjects about which I know little. I'm qualified to judge the few, and you could rely on my rating. If I tried to rate any of the others, you'd be a fool to rely on me.

Consumer Reports tries to judge and rate everything.

When they rated some of those things I know very well, and their rating just didn't make any sense based on my expertise, I started questioning the rest of their ratings. I started going to other sources to back-check. What I found in most cases was that bonafide experts in each area disagreed with CR, or had other opinions based on much more exhaustive knowledge. Often, their opinion was that the best items in each category were items that CR never ever tested. Certainly that was the case in some of the areas in which I have extensive knowledge.

I'll give you just one example. I used to have a BBQ grill store. We sold, assembled and repaired BBQ grills. We had a really active repair department. We saw literally every make and model of gas grill. CR picked their 3 best. One was a safe choice -- Weber. Not bad, and the grill that I most often recommended for the common man, but certainly not the best. The other 2 they picked were a joke. Poorly made of inferior materials, they were the grills that failed most often.

Of the grills they tested, there were 3 or 4 that were better in ALL respects. They never tested the best grills in any price category.

Just look at the threads above about the MINI. One report says maintenance is acceptable, another says maintenance is high. Upon what do they judge it? Their experience with one or two cars? Reports from readers of CR?

Nope, sorry. I've learned that I can depend on CR to get it wrong more often than not. That's my experience; as I said in my original post, it works for me. If faith in CR works for you, well, that's what makes the world go 'round. I will never again own a GM product, some others will not buy a Ford...

Moon · Apr 4, 2005

Very well said Snowridge! I agree 100%

Before Honda and Toyota were winning all the CR car of the year awards I gave CR a try (mid to late 80's timeframe). I checked their reports on vehicles I had owned or currently owned. Their opinion of those vehicles were bad to very bad. Not my experience at all. While I like the concept of CR I trust them even less than the car magazine reports; partially because the car mag will explain their ratings better than CR. CR's statistics did not hold true for me; so, I do not put much credence in the data they put out.

Anyone know the ballpark price on the mini copper convertable?

Atta boy Don! I was posting this before I saw yours, but your post says it mucho better.

Moon of Ohio

heehaw · Apr 4, 2005

i know nothing about anything, and my goal in life is to know less....seems like its a burden to know something...kinda like my grandad said, if you don't want to do something for the rest of your life, don't do it the first time...i take it a little further and try not to know HOW to do that something...so i rely on cr or other places i consider fair and balanced..especially when they rate toyota cars so high, and i have personal experience with toyotas that agrees.
heehaw

Bird · Apr 4, 2005

Phil, I'm one of those who has no confidence in Consumer Reports, and I can tell you why. They rate or rank the products they test, and some people may make the mistake of looking only at that rating without reading the entire report, so they think one product is "better" than another. Well, those tests are done by humans who have their own prejudices and preferences, just as we all do. So the things that they consider important may, or may not, be things that you consider important.

Many years ago, I was a subscriber, and I was one of those who received questionnaires, which I answered. I'll give you two examples from over 20 years ago:

I bought a new 1982 Isuzu I-Mark diesel sedan, and later received and responded to the quesionnaire Consumer Reports sent. When they published their article and ranking, they compared the diesel Isuzu to a gasoline powered Toyota and a gasoline powered compact Oldsmobile (I've forgotten the exact models). They "ranked" the Toyota first, the Olds second, and the Isuzu last (have they ever ranked any motor vehicle above a Toyota? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). So to start with, they were comparing apples to oranges. Now if you read the entire report, in the very first paragraph the author admitted that he did NOT like diesel automobiles "unless it said Mercedes on it." And in reading the entire report, the only criticism of the Isuzu was that it was awkard to get in and out of the back seat. And if you read the results of their survey of owners, the Isuzu owners were the most satisfied and had the fewest maintenance and repair problems. Unbiased report? Hardly.

Another of their "comparisons" was of walk behind lawnmowers of several brands, including Lawnboy. The Lawnboy had a 2-stroke engine and the others had 4-stroke engines. In their ranking, the Lawnboy came in very low because it didn't have the power of the 4-stroke Briggs powered machines in tall grass. I'll certainly concede that point, but I didn't let my lawn get knee deep before mowing, so that was not a consideration for me. I bought a used 2-stroke self-propelled Lawnboy that I used for over 15 years before retiring, selling the house, and going to full time RVing, at which time the mower still worked like new when I gave it away. One of my employees used his for over 25 years, and the next door neighbor had his for many years. The 2-stroke Lawnboy was the most reliable, longest lasting lawnmower I've ever known of, but I wouldn't recommend it for mowing your pasture. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

So . . ., certainly nothing wrong with considering what Consumer Reports says, but you need to carefully read the entire report, consider what features are important to you, and remember that you're still just getting the author's opinion.

Bird · Apr 4, 2005

Looks like several of us were typing, replying to Phil, at the same time. I was just slower than some of you. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

cmhyland · Apr 4, 2005

Boondox,

I assume this is a BMW "Certified" used car... With the added warranty. Buy it if you like it... In the end it doesn't matter what we all think. If this is what makes you wife happy then it's worth double the cost....

My wife drives a 3.0 liter BMW Z3... We've had it for 3 years without a problem and she loves it. As for me I can't get in it until the top is down..

It's her baby and it makes her happy, and that makes me happy....

Regards,
Chris

PhilNH5 · Apr 4, 2005

( Essentially you are saying that those of us that rely on user forums for information regarding future purchases are unable to separate the wheat from the chaff. )
Nope never said that. You have been coming here for nigh on 2 years and are an active poster. You have invested time to figure out which of the posters you trust and those you can ignore. You, yourself have separated the wheat from the chaff.
But what about the newbie? Does a search finds this forum and starts reading. How is he to know? For instance there is a poster who hates MTD. Spouts off all the time. Even spouts wrong info like they own Toro and therefore all Toro's are junk. There is a current thread in the lawn forum about MTD. How does a newbie know who is posting and whether their info is good and reliable? They must either devote lots of time or they just put the TBN info into their arsenal of decision making tools. I happen to put CR in my arsenal.

( Statistics are easily manipulated ) This one I know. My favorite quote from school "Figures don't lie - liars figure." But CR is at least offering enough figures to make a statistically significant conclusion. If they don't have enough responses they tell you so. Again it becomes one more tool to utilize.

I am by know means knocking TBN. I find this place invaluable. And for more than just tractor info. I have sought and received help on such diverse topics as maple sugaring, a wood cookstove and my furnance. In fact I posted here before buying my latest truck. I also used CR for that. Got a Dakota Quad cab with (as CR noted) an exceptionally stiff ride and lousy gas mileage. But an acceptable truck for our intended use.

So I do not discount TBN and other sources. But nor do I dismiss CR out of hand. I find it to useful. They often think of things I never would have. Like the increased likelihood of a lawn tractor tipping backwards when the baggers are filled with grass. The weight out back moves the center of gravity. When I brought my first garden tractor I would have never even thought of this. One more valuable piece of info.

Phil

Egon · Apr 5, 2005

Pete:

Here is a small diesel car built for two.

2005 Smart Fortwo

Egon

JDGREEN4ME · Apr 5, 2005

If I wasn't so "Maxi" I would love to have a "Mini" Cooper S. We see a bunch of them around Watkins Glenn... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SnowRidge · Apr 5, 2005

But what about the newbie? Does a search finds this forum and starts reading. How is he to know? 

By spending a little time researching, by going through old threads, etc. TBN in particular makes this easy. This is exactly what I did when we bought our property and needed to become informed on tractors and such. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I also did the same thing recently when my wife decided she would like to buy a diesel VW bug. Her sister's husband drives one, and he used to rebuild injection pumps and injectors for a living, so that in itself was a pretty good recommendation. I scoured the auto forums and usenet. It soon became clear there were serious issues with VW build quality and buying one would become a crap shoot. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

We passed. No CR needed. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

PhilNH5 · Apr 5, 2005

( I scoured the auto forums and usenet. It soon became clear there were serious issues with VW build quality )

I gleaned the same info in 5 minutes whilst perusing CR's Annual Auto issue in the bathroo... err in the "library" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Phil

Jagmandave · Apr 5, 2005

I do what many do in reading CR, but it's just one of the tools in my aresenal of information gathering. But, I also think we tend to over inform ourselves these days. Where cars are concerned especially, there really are no "bad" cars anymore, they don't survive the marketplace. Too much information gets out too quickly, and they're gone. If you like the Mini, buy the newest best one you can from a good reputable dealer, and just enjoy it!
BTW, my understanding was that most of the complaints on the new Mini had to do with the cupholders, not the car itself!