mf 35 23c idling problem

[HankStains]

Hi, got a massey 835 ds french version with a 23c 4 cylinder diesel. changed all the filters oil and new fuel and starts on the button but ticks over at 1200 rpm and smokes like hell.
If I pull out the "stop" button some way it calms down and I can get it to tick over at 700 rpm and it stops smoking and sounds great but the throttle doesn't work so much and only goes up to 1400 rpm, then doesn't slow down when you decelerate.
guessing the fuel pump is a bit screwed. The throttle only adjusts the butterfly valve in the air intake?? you can feel the the stop lever pulling your fingers when you open the throttle is that a vacuum thing? not sure how these things work? it is a lavalette fuel pump!! I have other vintage diesel things and the throttle is always linked to a bar through the fuel pump.

any pointers much appreciated

thanks
Hank

 

[Jerry/MT]

Hi, got a massey 835 ds french version with a 23c 4 cylinder diesel. changed all the filters oil and new fuel and starts on the button but ticks over at 1200 rpm and smokes like hell.
If I pull out the "stop" button some way it calms down and I can get it to tick over at 700 rpm and it stops smoking and sounds great but the throttle doesn't work so much and only goes up to 1400 rpm, then doesn't slow down when you decelerate.
guessing the fuel pump is a bit screwed. The throttle only adjusts the butterfly valve in the air intake?? you can feel the the stop lever pulling your fingers when you open the throttle is that a vacuum thing? not sure how these things work? it is a lavalette fuel pump!! I have other vintage diesel things and the throttle is always linked to a bar through the fuel pump.

any pointers much appreciated

thanks
Hank

This is a compression ignition engine and it has an unrestricted intake system. ( that's why automotive diesels have an engine drive vacuum pump to use for power brakes). There is no throttle plate. There is no vacuum in the intake manifold. Power is controlled by fuel delivery. At any given rpm, the airflow is constant and the fuel is metered to control power dependent on load. The rpm droops a little with increasing load. For diesel to make power you need compression, airflow, and fuel flow at the right time via the injectors.

What color is the smoke? Have you looked at the air cleaner/ intake system. It may be clogged with dirt, crud, mouse nests, etc. Take the air cleaner off and see if that makes any difference.
Not being able to get to high idle indicates inadequate fuel flow. Check the fuel delivery system for restrictions. The culprits are usually crud at the tank outlet, clogged fuel; filters or trash in the filter head, pinched fuel lines,. Check the fuel return to tank line for clogging.

Make sure you have full fuel delivery to the Injector pump (IP).

 

[HankStains]

Thanks Jerry, I like you thought that was how all diesels worked, BUT not this one, the throttle control only operates a butterfly valve on the intake manifold, as you open the throttle the vacuum increases and via a venturi tube creates a vacuum on the diaphragm in the injection pump and this sucks the rack across and allows more fuel in. very strange. it is a French injector pump made by lavalette.
I had a leak on the venturi tube which prevented the vacuum sucking on the diaphragm and moving the rack.....who knew.

watch my little video

 

[Jerry/MT]

Thanks Jerry, I like you thought that was how all diesels worked, BUT not this one, the throttle control only operates a butterfly valve on the intake manifold, as you open the throttle the vacuum increases and via a venturi tube creates a vacuum on the diaphragm in the injection pump and this sucks the rack across and allows more fuel in. very strange. it is a French injector pump made by lavalette.
I had a leak on the venturi tube which prevented the vacuum sucking on the diaphragm and moving the rack.....who knew.

watch my little video

Hank,
This is somewhat confusing. Where is the diesel IP? That device looks like a standard spark ignition type set up. Does it have two air inlets, one for petrol and then one for the diesel? Does the engine start on gas (petrol) and then switch to diesel? There were tractors here in the States that worked like that.

Thanks Jerry, I like you thought that was how all diesels worked, BUT not this one, the throttle control only operates a butterfly valve on the intake manifold, as you open the throttle the vacuum increases and via a venturi tube creates a vacuum on the diaphragm in the injection pump and this sucks the rack across and allows more fuel in. very strange. it is a French injector pump made by lavalette.
I had a leak on the venturi tube which prevented the vacuum sucking on the diaphragm and moving the rack.....who knew.

watch my little video

http://vieux.tracteurs.free.fr/pdf/Manuel_atelier_moteur_23C.pdf

Hank,
Here's a link I found about the engine on the French tractor. It's called a "835". The above link is a workshop manual for the engine, written in French, and the IP looks like a normal 4 cyl IP pump. The engine is nominally a 20:1 compression ratio with Ricardo chambers. I didn't see anything like what you showed in the video regarding a throttle valve on the intake so I have to think it was some sort of a cold starting aid as these engines were notoriously hard to start in cold weather. Does that throttle valve go full open once the diesel is running or does it have a separate intake?
Cheers,
Jerry


Here's another link you might find useful:http://vieux.tracteurs.free.fr/pdf/Manuel_atelier_moteur_23C.pdf

 

[HankStains]

Hi Jerry, thanks for the continued effort. Yep see what you mean but that is the CAV pump and works like a regular pump. I have one on my case 580B with David brown 990 four cylinder diesel.

The MF 835 DS that I have is the orchard version with the downward exhaust and the Lavallette injection pump. There is no mechanical linkage from the throttle to the pump JUST a venturi tube. The rack is moved by suction. As the butterfly valve opens on the manifold inlet it allows the engine to suck the rack across the injector pump. There is a cold start mechanism which involves a preheat and a diesel spray into the manifold. These are not connected to the injector pump. I can send you a more detailed video with a breakdown of the parts if you want. Took me a while to get my head round it, never too old to learn something new eh? Thanks again for all the input, just found out it does not and never did have a hydraulic filter fitted.
Need to buy 30 litres of oil for trans, not sure whether to get 80w 90 tractor gearbox oil or try and find a universal 10w 30 tractor oil.
Any thoughts.
Not sure if the 80w 90 is MF-1129 equivalent but pretty sure it is EP rated

Cheers
Hank

 

[Jerry/MT]

Hank,
Any transhydraulic fluid is what should be used in the gearbox not any straight gear oil. IIRC, there are some brass parts in the the pump and the rear axle that would be damaged by components in gear oil.I don't know what you have available over where you are at but New Holland Ambra, John Deere's transhydraulic fluid, Ford M2C-134D fluid would work. Even 15W40 motor oil will work.

I find this device that you are talking about somewhat perplexing since it is apparently in or attached to the main intake manifold and it throttles the intake to maintain a vacuum to control the IP fuel flow to control rpm and power. Why such a mechanism when the direct mechanical connection would be much more simple and reliable? This throttling of the intake airflow must certainly limit the engine power because it affects flow into the cylinders and power in a compression ignition engine is a a function of fuel flow and airflow. As a former aircraft propulsion engineer(35 years) I am curious as to why this device is used and how it actually works so any info you can provide would help satisfy my curiosity. Why doesn't the reference material I sent you make mention of it? Was this some sort of customized, special use machine? This engine, Made by Standard Engines in the UK was used in the MF 35 here in the States, and to my knowledge, never had a device like this installed on it.

 

[HankStains]

Hi jerry sorry for the tardy reply, been busy. Will send some info but this pump was built for the 835 DS which is the French version of the 35, has the Hotchkiss c23 engine 4 cylinder with this really weird Lavallette pump. Not sure of the idea behind it, but it does work very well, when it works!! It just replaces the mechanical pull of the rack from the throttle to a vacuum pull via this venturi tube otherwise pretty standard. The French were quite ingenious in their day, just look at the hydraulic suspension and the go round the corner headlights in the Citroen DS!! They also helped build concord and their passenger liners (boats) were the envy of the world....after the British that is!!

It is built for apple orchards and has a downward exhaust to protect the fruit and the trees. Quite clever really.



I like the idea of 15w 40 engine oil as much cheaper, doesn’t the oil have to be EP rated though or should I just change it more often, especially as there is no filter.

Whereabouts are you and what sort of kit have you got?

Cheers

Hank

 

[Jerry/MT]

Hi jerry sorry for the tardy reply, been busy. Will send some info but this pump was built for the 835 DS which is the French version of the 35, has the Hotchkiss c23 engine 4 cylinder with this really weird Lavallette pump. Not sure of the idea behind it, but it does work very well, when it works!! It just replaces the mechanical pull of the rack from the throttle to a vacuum pull via this venturi tube otherwise pretty standard. The French were quite ingenious in their day, just look at the hydraulic suspension and the go round the corner headlights in the Citroen DS!! They also helped build concord and their passenger liners (boats) were the envy of the world....after the British that is!!

It is built for apple orchards and has a downward exhaust to protect the fruit and the trees. Quite clever really.



I like the idea of 15w 40 engine oil as much cheaper, doesn’t the oil have to be EP rated though or should I just change it more often, especially as there is no filter.

Whereabouts are you and what sort of kit have you got?

Cheers

Hank

This type of indirect control sounds like a solution in search of a problem! A simple mechanical linkage control works the world over. Ah well there must be a good reason for it.
As far as the 15W40 oil for the transhydraulic fluid, go on to Yesterdays Tractor in the Ferguson Forum. Several of the folks there have used it for this application. I have no experience with it.

I'm located in what's called "the Palouse" which is a great wheat and timber producing area (North Idaho) in the state of Washington and northern Idaho. (You may have heard of the Appaloosa horse; it's a corruption of "A Palouse Horse.")
We sold our irrigated ranch in Montana and moved here earlier this year. In Montana we had a cow-calf operation and we raised our own hay for winter feed. In Idaho we intend to raise hay and we also have a small woodlot. We have a NH TD95D, a Ford 4610, and a Kubota M4500. The Ford does the mowing, the Kubota does the raking and the NH does the baling. Our operation is dryland (meaning we don't have irrigation) but where we only had 16 inches of rainfall in Montana, we have about 28 inches of rainfall at our location here in Idaho. Wheat, canola, chick peas, lentils, hay, cattle and calves, timber, and grazing are the predominant agricultural endeavors locally.

What's a Englishman doing in France? Do you miss the beer? I spent some time in the Midlands working with Rolls Royce at Derby. I miss the beer!

Cheers,
Jerry

 

[Cougsfan]

I have a Ferguson with a Standard 23c diesel like yours, Hank, but boy is it different! My fuel injection system is a a totally different brand and I have no butterfly valve on the intake manifold. Does your tractor have glow plugs?
Mine also have no transmission oil filter.
Jerry's statements about transmission oil leaves me a little confused though. When I bought my tractor (used) back in 1985 it had SAE 90w oil (gear oil) in the transmission. It worked just fine for the 1000 or more tractor hours that I put on it. Not knowing any better, when When I overhauled the tractor in about 2008 or so I changed the tractor's transmission oil and put SAE 90w back in.
I have only put on 300 hrs since the overhaul (the old TO35 is just a spare these days) and the transmission and 3 point still work fine.
Now that I know it is the wrong oil, I am still not excited about changing it out, and if it was so bad, I would have seemingly had some problems over all these many years and many hours of use. Not sure what to do.

 

[Cougsfan]

Hank,
Any transhydraulic fluid is what should be used in the gearbox not any straight gear oil. IIRC, there are some brass parts in the the pump and the rear axle that would be damaged by components in gear oil.I don't know what you have available over where you are at but New Holland Ambra, John Deere's transhydraulic fluid, Ford M2C-134D fluid would work. Even 15W40 motor oil will work.

This morning I went out and looked at my transmission oil fill plug. On it says SAE 90w summer, 80w winter.