Metal working safety

/ Metal working safety #21  
Kinda looks like a old furnace and some flex you acquire for less than $200. :D

Reheating makeup air is not a big deal. As it pushes in air your exhaust is working even better off of a pressurizing building. Makeup air is just as simple. Plus you will be happy in hotter days because you are pushing air in and pulling air out. Air moving makes a sweating body's evaporative cooling work much better. I work on a lot of welding spot coolers, dust collectors, exhaust and make up air at factories. The big boy stuff is not real elaborate just simple push air in shove air out.
 
/ Metal working safety #22  
I suspect that Silicosis might be the worst offender. (chop saws sand blasting and grinding)
Other things are bad as well such as welding galvanized metal but most welders are aware of that one.
Perhaps a mask while grinding would not be intolerable and a shop vac adjacent to your chop saw would help a lot.**
Or again a powerful wall vent fan directly behind the chop saw to move that silica laced air outside.

** the type that wood work shops use with a 4" suction hose.
 
/ Metal working safety
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Started looking at PAPR welding helmets and I am very impressed with the miller 9400i papr. It's a bit pricey at over $1500, but thats a small price to pay for peace of mind when considering all the possible health issues from welding.

This seems to be the most feasible method of protection as I will not be able to tolerate wearing a respirator and I dont want to rely on ventilation alone as I'm sure I would still be breathing in some amount of fumes. Anybody have experience with PAPR welding helmets and advice on which one I should get?

Miller - Welding Helmets & Welder Safety Equipment and Clothing - Powered Air Purifying Respirator (PAPR)
 
/ Metal working safety #25  
" I've been a metal fabricator for 7 years since I was 16."\

can't offer any direct advice other than you are leagues ahead of your age group peers in seeking out these safety issues early on w/the future in mind. no doubt, many career welders have eye & respiratory issues by middle age. have seen countless times road construction crews cutting concrete w/abrasive saws w/o eye, ear, or respiratory protection. if the population @ large would look into their own future occupational & personal health risks, some of the current health care nightmares would be avoided. (no politics please!!!) btw i'm not associated w/osha....just a retired shop teacher fortunately w/all digits intact & no health issues. best of luck
 
/ Metal working safety #26  
Check into the fresh air masks for painters, there are full face and half masks. Some have there own pump, I used a half mask with a belted mounter filter which used air from your air compressor. These help keep you cool also.

I have thought about adding the hose to my welding helmet, this would supply cool and fresh air. I hate it when my lense fogs up. This would be like the fresh air supplied to race car helmets.

Dave
 
/ Metal working safety #27  
Found a fresh air helmet on ebay, with auto darkening for 399

Dave
 
/ Metal working safety #28  
I am a hobby metal and wood worker, also do a lot of fiberglass (boat construction/rebuild). I wear a respirator as much as possible, unless I am and grinding metal outside and at all times with fiberglass. Why chance it? It's not that big of an inconvenience.

I use a large dust extractor with the hose in the output stream when grinding fiberglass to try to capture as much as possible at the source.

If you have your own shop get it set up with dust and fume extraction so that it doesn't impede your productivity and you'll be good to go. It has to be easy to set up and use or you will get tired of messing with it every time and stop using it.
 
/ Metal working safety #29  
I work for United Airlines in San Francisco and we have been doing away with all open grinding, sanding etc due to "HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM" which is in all kinds of stuff like stainless steel, anti-corrosion coating , dyes .... All our sanders , Hi-speed cutters are now connected to HEPA vacuums with shrouds around the cutters. See this link @Wikipedia for quick info Hexavalent chromium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Now I haven't heard of anyone getting CANCER in my almost 40 years in the biz but they sure forced this new tooling on us!
 
/ Metal working safety #30  
The complication with discussions like this is that no one really knows what you are being exposed to, how much, and most importantly, whether your body will be affected by what seems like random bad luck. Lots of workers have lots of exposure to bad stuff and seem to reach old age, but if you are the one who leaves a doctor's office with bad news, then none of that matters. Being safe when it comes to possible can be a hassle, but watching someone you care about die from emphysema or lung cancer when they didn't smoke is worse. And if the person dying is you... We are being exposed to more and more bad stuff all the time, and bad luck, or one too many genetic malfunctions, is not good.
 
/ Metal working safety #31  
Outback,
You're on the right track by your awareness of metalworking hazards. It can be complicated, with hazards varying by type and severity depending on types of metals welded and the type of welding rod used. I did a considerable number of industrial hygiene surveys of welding/ cutting operations when I was employed as a Risk Control Consultant for one of the major insurance companies for 18 years. When I say complicated, I mean there are volumes of publications dedicated just to welding safety.

I cringe when I hear someone say something like "I've been doing this for 20 years and never wore a mask and I'm OK". To that I say FAMOUS LAST WORDS, as there are all too many people with disorders of the respiratory or central nervous system caused by exposure to welding hazards.

Here's what I would do: you can get a lot of competent free advice from your workers comp insurance company, OSHA, state worker safety outreach, maybe American Welding Society, local safety council office, maybe even suppliers.

Some operations are more dangerous than others. If you don't work with anything too exotic, your exposure could be minimal. Have you researched Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for the metals or the rod? If not, do a google search for "MSDS Alloy 123" or whatever you're working with, and that will give you information about physical properties, health hazards, protective equipment needed, etc. suppliers of these materials are also required by law to provide an MSDS with the product if you request it.

That's all for now, i hope this info helps
 
/ Metal working safety #32  
I gave the 3m respirator a try while using the chop saw and after 7 minutes I had to take it off. It pulls down hard on the end of my nose, it interferes with my safety glasses leaveing a gap where a hot piece of metal can easily slip through into my eyes, and the inside of the mask fills up with moisture.


Seriously do welders really wear these respirators for 10 hours a day?


Think I'm going to make something like this over my welding table using a squirrel cage extractor fan.
welding_fume_extractor_ducting_squirrel_cage_fan.jpg
The answer is no, welder don't wear respirators when welding on carbon steel.
Maybe put a rheostat on the motor or at least a 2 or 3 speed fan as you may not always need to run it wide open. A small hood attached to the end would gather more smoke without the need for high air pull.
 
/ Metal working safety #33  
I was in a woodworking supply store today and noticed a rather large 'funnel' that is meant to attach to 4" dust collector ducting mainly for when using a miter saw.
In fact I would think that even the smallest capacity (CFM's) dust collectors would be just right for welding fume extraction.
Those smaller units run about $100. or so, run on 110VAC, use 4" ducting.
Just discard the dust bag and add outlet ducting.
For building exit use a clothes drier vent outlet.
Meant to suck sawdust but sure move a lot of air when not hauling dust.
The funnel (or cone) was about 16" X 16". and they also carried all sorts of flexible ducting.
Flexible for down line and rigid 4" ducting for outside venting.
A guy could rig up an effective fume system for about $200. or less 'borrowing' ideas from that industry.
They even have wireless switches that you could use as well for convenience.
 
/ Metal working safety #34  
Check into the fresh air masks for painters, there are full face and half masks. Some have there own pump, I used a half mask with a belted mounter filter which used air from your air compressor. These help keep you cool also.

If you have an oiled compressor, aren't you supposed to avoid breathing the air?
 
/ Metal working safety #35  
I think thats what the filter is for? Maybe thats why most have there own pump?

Dave
 
/ Metal working safety #36  
The tool and machine shop where I worked had lots of table specific exhaust fans... heating and cooling were not an issue in the mild Bay Area climate...

When I had to grind stainless tank flanges in the yard... I bought my own 3M respirator and used it... some of the guys gave me quite a ribbing for it and later, the company bought them for all of us...

We would also reline some special application friction materials...

Even today... with my hay fever... I will wear a respirator on the tractor in the spring and it does make a difference at night not being congested.

It's good to ask questions... no one will care as much as you... at least this was my reasoning when I bought my own respirator and hearing protection...
 
/ Metal working safety #38  
"Studies have shown manganese fumes from welding can cause parkinsons disease."

Strange. Seems to be quite a few actors in Hollywood who have Parkinson's and they darn sure never set foot in a welding shop, much less worked in one.

No one said that welding was the only way that people develop Parkinson's Dz. There are many other factors and causes, including multiple mild traumatic brain injuries, i.e., punch drunk syndrome, like Mr. Ali.
 
/ Metal working safety #39  
When you google manganism, this is one of the first links to come up.

Manganism or Manganese Poisoning

At first glance it appears to be an informative website on the hazards of welding fumes, but then if you look in the upper left corner of the page notice the logo shows that the website is setup by a law office.

Reading that website scares the sh** out of me knowing I've been welding for 7 years without knowing the risk for developing parkinson disease.


The thing is if you google rare diseases, for example bacterial meningitis, you will find many stories of people who experienced the disease. When I google manganism there are no first hand stories from patients. It just does not seem as common as the propaganda websites make it seem.

Do any of you long time welders know coworkers who developed manganism or parkinsons disease?

Reguardless, I'm heading to the welding supply store to pickup a 3m 7502 respirator with 2091 cartridges and will wear is for welding and grinding.

Neurotoxins:
Neurotoxins may affect neurons, axons, or glial cells. They may cause metabolic imbalance that can secondarily affect the central nervous system (CNS). Some neurotoxins like manganese and MPTP have typical regional predilections. The following is a concise review of selected commonly encountered neurotoxins.

Metals
Metals have been known to be neurotoxic for centuries.

Contamination of groundwater with arsenic has been associated with epidemics of arsenic poisoning in some parts of south Asia.[4]

Increased awareness of lead toxicity over the past decades and regulations regarding the use of lead-based paints has decreased the incidence of lead toxicity.

Manganism was described as recently as 1989 in Taiwan.

Metals
Most reports of acute and chronic arsenic toxicity result from arsenic trioxide. In the United States, the drinking water standard for arsenic is 100 ppb.

Lead exists in 3 forms: metallic, inorganic, and organic. Lead is absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract or lungs. Approximately 99% of lead is in erythrocytes, and 1% is in plasma and serum. Lipid-rich tissue of the CNS is particularly sensitive to the organic form of lead. Leadç—´ ability to interfere with regulatory effects of calcium in cell systems may lead to its effect on voltage-gated channels and synaptic transmission.

Manganese is an essential trace element widely distributed in the environment. Most cases of manganese toxicity result from chronic inhalation of manganese dioxide.

Metals
Arsenic affects both motor and sensory peripheral nerves. Lead affects the motor nerves of upper and lower extremity. Acute lead poisoning can affect the CNS. Manganese can accumulate in globus pallidus and cause toxicity.

Metals
Arsenic causes a gastrointestinal disease characterized by vomiting and diarrhea, which may be followed by an encephalopathy with confusion, seizure, and coma. Chronic arsenic toxicity is a multisystem disease, characterized by sensorimotor polyneuropathy, skin changes, and alopecia.

The major target of lead toxicity is the peripheral nervous system in adults and CNS in children.[20] Intense toxicity may lead to an acute illness characterized by encephalopathy or an acute abdomen. Chronic lead exposure leads to predominantly motor neuropathy, affecting the upper extremity more than the lower. The minimum blood concentration needed is 10 ï½µg/dL in children and 40 ï½µg/dL in adults.

Initial signs and symptoms of manganese toxicity are nonspecific: headache, asthenia, somnolence, anorexia, and/or loss of ****** drive. Manganese causes an extrapyramidal syndrome characterized by progressive parkinsonism, dystonia, and neuropsychiatric symptoms (Manganese madness).[21] MRI shows a hyperintense T1 signal in the pallidum

Metals
Sural nerve biopsy in patients with arsenic poisoning shows axonal degeneration involving myelinated axons of all sizes with relative sparing of unmyelinated axons. Nerve biopsy in lead poisoning shows both axonal degeneration and segmental demyelination with prominent endoneural edema. Manganese encephalopathy is characterized by selective neuronal loss and gliosis in globus pallidus with relative sparing of the substantia nigra. There is also some involvement of the subthalamic nucleus and mamillary bodies.

Background
Some debate exists as to exactly what constitutes a "heavy metal" and which elements should properly be classified as such. Some authors have based the definition on atomic weight, others point to those metals with a specific gravity of greater than 4.0, or greater than 5.0. The actinides may or may not be included. Most recently, the term "heavy metal" has been used as a general term for those metals and semimetals with potential human or environmental toxicity.[1, 2] {{RE This definition includes a broad section of the periodic table under the rubric of interest.

Regardless of how one chooses to define the category, heavy metal toxicity is an uncommon diagnosis. With the possible exceptions of acute iron toxicity from intentional or unintentional ingestion and suspected lead exposure, emergency physicians will rarely be alerted to the possibility of metal exposure. Yet, if unrecognized or inappropriately treated, heavy metal exposure can result in significant morbidity and mortality. This article provides a brief overview of general principles in the diagnosis and management of metal toxicity. The Table reviews the typical presentation of the most commonly encountered metals and their treatment in summary form. It is not intended to guide clinical decision-making in specific cases.

Many of the elements that can be considered heavy metals have no known benefit for human physiology. Lead, mercury, and cadmium are prime examples of such "toxic metals." Yet, other metals are essential to human biochemical processes. For example, zinc is an important cofactor for several enzymatic reactions in the human body, vitamin B-12 has a cobalt atom at its core, and hemoglobin contains iron. Likewise, copper, manganese, selenium, chromium, and molybdenum are all trace elements, which are important in the human diet. Another subset of metals includes those used therapeutically in medicine; aluminum, bismuth, gold, gallium, lithium, and silver are all part of the medical armamentarium. Any of these elements may have pernicious effects if taken in quantity or if the usual mechanisms of elimination are impaired.

Exposure to metals may occur through the diet, from medications, from the environment, or in the course of work or play. Where heavy metal toxicity is suspected, time taken to perform a thorough dietary, occupational, and recreational history is time well spent, since identification and removal of the source of exposure is frequently the only therapy required.

A full dietary and lifestyle history may reveal hidden sources of metal exposure. Metals may be contaminants in dietary supplements, or they may leech into food and drink stores in metal containers like lead decanters. Persons intentionally taking colloidal metals for their purported health benefits may ultimately develop toxicity. Metal toxicity may complicate some forms of drug abuse. Beer drinkerç—´ cardiomyopathy was diagnosed in alcoholics in Quebec, and later Minnesota, during a brief period in the 1970s when cobalt was added to beer on tap to stabilize the head. More recently, a parkinsonian syndrome among Latvian injection drug users of methcathinone has been linked to manganese toxicity.

Manganese- acute exposure to fumes causes MFF, Chronic Exposure causes a Parkinson-like syndrome, with respiratory and neuropsychiatric impairments.

Nearly all organ systems are involved in heavy metal toxicity; however, the most commonly involved organ systems include the CNS, PNS, GI, hematopoietic, renal, and cardiovascular (CV). To a lesser extent, lead toxicity involves the musculoskeletal and reproductive systems. The organ systems affected and the severity of the toxicity vary with the particular heavy metal involved, the chronicity and extent of the exposure, and the age of the individual.

Parkinsonism-Dementia-ALS Complex
Parkinsonism – dementia – amyotrophic lateral sclerosis complex (PDALS) is a condition well described on the island of Guam and is known there as Lytico-Bodig disease. The latter term is derived from the local Guamanian dialect, with lytico referring to the paralysis caused by the ALS component and with bodig referring to the "laziness" that describes the parkinsonian component.

Extensive genetic and environmental research has been performed on this disorder in the last 50 years. The incidence of PDALS peaked in the 1950s and has declined since then. Dietary toxins in native flour were once considered the source of a potential neurotoxin. However, this hypothesis has been ruled out. The flour is obtained from the seeds of the cycad tree. Because the seed contains a potent hepatotoxin, the flour must be washed many times before consumption. Cycasin and beta-N -methyl-amino-L-alanine (BMAA) are putative neurotoxins in the seed. If the seeds are repeatedly washed, ingestion of an estimated 70 kg of flour is required to receive a toxic dose; therefore, this hypothesis is unlikely. Toxic effects of manganese and aluminum are also being considered.


That is all I could find re:manganese and parkinson's, and it does obviously suggest that ventilation is a key way to avoid metal toxicity.
 
/ Metal working safety #40  
Very few if any of these chemicals will be in contact with a welder who works on Carbon steel material only. CS has a very small amount of manganese in it to start with so a welder would need to inhale a heck of a lot of fumes in order to even be slightly approaching a THL of chemicals. I would be more afraid of any chemical contact with the material, like degreasers, that may produce fumes that are not so good for you. Basically if it smells bad or is irritating to the nose, I would take action to eliminate it. Lead and zinc contamination is the most frequent culprit to damaging a person in the metal trades.

Proper PPE (personal protective equipment) is essential when handling or welding on any product. Most times this is just leather gloves and a welding hood with proper shade of lens, or it could mean fresh air mask (not from a compressor with oiled bearings), fully enclosed suit to prevent any contact (similar to a biohazard suit) but this is very rare in the metal trades and requires special training to use.

As you stated, ventilation is the key to any contamination issues. Proper smoke removal, even if it is just an open door with air mover of any type with cross ventilation is basically all that is needed for normal welding operations on carbon steel.
 

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