Mechanics Startup tools

[UncleBuck01]

Need some advice from people who work with their tools everyday, my son will be attending college next year in the NY State college system in the Automotive tech Field. Here is a quote from their college catalog, " We have special arrangements for the purchase of the required tools with Snap-On, Sears (Craftsman), MAC Tools, Inc. and the local NAPA store (all tools are professional quality and carry a lifetime guarantee)." Snap-on is the only one we received a price list with students getting 30%-40% LIST PRICE, still waiting to get prices from the other tool manufacturers. What would be your choice today for tools. I also have a secondary question, the colleges have also teamed up with GM, Toyota, and Ford to supply cars, instructors, and brand specific tools & computers. What would be your choice of car manufactures to work for or would you keep it general repair and come out with as many ASE certifications you can fit into two years of school.
Thanks in Advance

 

[Bird]

Buck, that sounds much like the program my grandson is involved with in a junior college here. He goes to regular classes at the college, but also part of the program is working at a local car dealership. In his case, he's working at a Ford dealership. But from what he and my daughter told me, this college did not offer a choice of tools; it's strictly Snap-On.

Now I have two brothers who were for years mechanics, they both owned MAC, Matco, and Snap-On tools, then were both later Matco Tool distributors, while I did the air tool repair/rebuilds for them as well as for a Snap-On distributor.

In my opinion, all of them sell very good tools, have a very good warranty, and are very expensive tools. Most mechanics pay a pretty high premium for their tools for very specific reasons: (1) the tool distributor will be by once a week, so they do not have to go shopping or take a broken tool somewhere for warranty service, and (2) they don't have to pay up front for their tools. Instead, they make weekly payments to their truck account. In many cases, with no interest.

Now the average markup on the tools on the truck is about 35%. If you think that's a little high, remember that the distributor has to buy an air-conditioned mobile showroom (the truck) that runs all day each day using a considerable amount of fuel. Then he also has to have the money up front to carry his customers who make weekly payments on tools that distributor has already paid for.

You will undoubtedly find some people who think Snap-On tools are "better" than the other brands. That's a bit like saying a John Deere is "better" than a Kubota or that a Kubota is "better" than a John Deere. They're all good.

I can tell you from experience that Snap-On air tools are no better and no worse than MAC, Matco, or Cornwell. There's really just one big difference. If you ever have to buy parts for air tools, you'll find MAC, Matco, Cornwell tools are nearly all made for them by Ingersoll-Rand or Chicago Pneumatic, parts are readily available and interchangeable. Not so with Snap-On. Their tools have the same designs but the parts are all just different enough that nothing but genuine original parts from Snap-On will work and you'll pay two to four times as much for the parts; in some cases even more. Example: a mechanic friend of mine needed an o-ring for a Snap-On. It cost $3 while basically the same thing for other brands would have been 30 cents; 10 times as much.

But for the "hard iron"; i.e., hand tools, I wouldn't give a nickel for the difference in the brands.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Any time you can get that deal from Snap-on, jump on it. You will hear varying opinions for and against here, but one thing you will never hear is that Snap-ons are just as good as the competition. The competition always claims to be as good as Snap-on.

I have a couple draws full of non Snap-ons among about $40,000 of Snap-ons. In the rare case that I break a Snap-on, maybe once a year, I can always find a Snap-on dealer. Not always the case with the other guys. I have broken Matco punches from 10 years ago and still can't find a local dealer.

As far as a lifetime warranty, just like Snap-on, the tool ain't worth a fiddlers fork when it's broken, so, warranty don't mean shot. You can't do the job with a broken tool, so you don't get paid. Snap-ons break far less than anything else.

 

[TrippleT]

I agree with Bird. All are good brands, and will last for a lifetime IF used properly. Of course, if you want to put a pipe on a wrench or ratchet, or what ever, you can break or bend any of them. I have tools that were cheaper, in so much as they did not have the finish that my Snap On, or Mac tools, have, but are still in good condition after 40 years of use.
There is a proper way to use tools. And then there are those who abuse their tools. If you use a torch on one don't expect them to last. LOL
The older Craftsman, were good tools.
I have heard stories about their quality not being as good as they once were. But, I have not had to replace any of mine and have duplicates of most all of my tools. SO, I don't know about them these days. I have a set of deep well impact sockets by Snap On that were not any better than some Craftsman I have. In fact they were softer.
Bottom line is get a decent brand and take care of them. Use them yes, but take care of them and they will take care you and your pocket book.

 

[AlanB]

For a beginer basic set, I would go with the craftsman. Then build on that base with some special high quality tools.

Basic tools, I don't think you can have too many.

I am always a bit leary of "special" deals, I would insure and confirm I could not beat the "special" deal by going to the store and joining the Craftsman club.

And for reference, there are plenty of Snap on, Mac, Matco, Armstrong, Cornwell etc. tools in my box as well as Dotco, and some other names.

For me, it is important to buy tools suited to the job, sometimes only the very best 1/4" drive set will do, and I will slightly disagree with Bird on this one, on the edge of performance the snap on will outdo the Craftsman, go on the Snap on truck and see if they still have the little demo blocks of the slightly rounded bolts, and the various sockets to try on them. My 1/4" Snap on set got out 100's of bolts that the mechanics said were "stripped". That said, my 3/4" drive set is Chinese, works good enough for what it is, it has one 1 1/2" craftsman socket in it that I used all the time.

For my son, it is Craftsman to start, and make sure the interest holds. Then buy him special tools, on special occasions.

As to the brands, out of school, I would concentrate on "general" and if / when he starts dealership work, hopefully the dealership will help with the education. When I went through, I did not have those choices.

Oh, and when I started, dad bought me "Powerkraft" (Montgomery Wards brand) and I still have most of that set.

 

[CATMAN]

I 2nd the comment about getting a deal on Snap-on tools. Go-for-it. There are some areas where I feel Snap-on was the only way to go. Example: open-end angle wrenches=Snap-on has 30 degree and 60 degree angles at opposite ends(std wrench=15 degrees). I don't think anyone else offers that, and when you need it, you need it. I also personally like Snap-on short combination wrenches, too(again, for tight spots). I have both Snap-on and Mac for my extra-long combination wrenches(HIGHLY recommend any extra-long wrench). If you have the clearance to swing these long wrenches, that will be the wrench that you grab everytime. Note: takes less effort=less busted knuckles.

I purchased long-handle Craftsman professional wrenches($100 Kit, on sale) for my dad and he really likes them for the farm, also.​

I still use my old Craftsman chrome sockets, but ALL impact sockets are Snap-on or Mac. All wobble sockets are Snap-on (They take a lot of stress).Heel bars are 100% Snap-on, also. Now, for 3/8" Rachets, I love my MATCO swivel heads ($118)and they have NEVER broke=NO busted knuckles! 1/2" and 3/4" breaker bars are Snap-on, but my extra long-handled 1/2" rachet w/adjustable locking head feature is Matco($150)=works excellent for turning over these big diesel engines at the crankshaft.

Another member mentioned this, it is about getting replacements, our shop as seen many different tool venders but for the most part, Snap-on has really been the only one that comes close to being reliable to show up in one or two weeks.(you may not see a Mac guy for a year=I no longer buy from them) Snap-on hasn't be perfect either, but much more consistent. This is important because of what an older mechanic told me when I "started out" with all Craftsman tools, He said: You'll get tired of running to Sears when you break a socket once a week or so, then you will realize why we all purchase from a tool truck.​

I did just received a new Craftsman tool catolog in the mail yesterday, but I haven't seen if they put together a KIT with only their "professional" wrenches in a beginner's kit. I say this because you will find that using the cheaper/standard combination wrenches that have the sharper edges will tend to cut into your hands verses a professional polished wrench. My old standard Craftsman (sharp edges) just sit in the toolbox and almost never get used any longer. The only reason I mentioned the Craftsman SETS, is that you used to be able to get a lot of chrome sockets(1/4"; 3/8"; 1/2") for a reasonable cost and that really helps to get a guy started. I hope this helps a little.

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

Check with the school. Most trade school programs have a list of tools that is coordinated with the lessons and labs. Also, they may have special pricing available on their student kit.

When I was an instructor, the school offered 3 different kits, one each from Mac, Matco and Snap-On. They were identical as far as content, it was just brand preference.

As far as certs and brand specialization, In my experience, it is better to not specialize for common brands and be a more rounded tech. If you are going to specialize, stick to the high end brands like MB, Porsche, Audi etc. There are fewer certified techs of these brands and you can command higher rates. However one thing to plan on is that the high end brands require you to attend the factory training courses overseas to become fully certified on your or your employers dime.

Another area to look into is heavy Diesel tech. With the computerization of over the road trucks, there is going to be high demand for diagnosticians that can troubleshoot the advanced systems. The same could be said of heavy construction equipment as the infrastructure is aging and going to need a lot of rework in the next 20 years.

OK, that's my 2 cents,

Tom

PS, avoid aircraft tech as most large carriers have gone to overseas techs to lower cost.

Afterthought: As far as brand of tool, I recommend the specialized brands, (Snap-On, Mac, Matco, Cornwell) over the standard brands (SK, Craftsman, Proto) Not because of a quality difference, but because of an ergonomic difference and specialized design enhancements. If you use tools for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week you will find that there is a difference in ease of use and more importantly speed of usage. The difference I have found is about 5 to 8% of productivity give or take. This may not sound like much but as 99% of techs work on a flat rate pay system, being able to beat flat rate times by 5% equals a 5% pay increase. You will not notice this difference turning wrenches a couple three times a week, 40 or 50 hours though you will.

 

[automech]

30 years ago my first tools were a 250 piece set of craftsman tools. Sockets, wrenches, screwdrivers etc. I still use them today, although I have added many many of the "pro" brand tools. Craftsman basic stuff still is a good value imho. I use all the brands, with Snap on being my first choice if price justifies it. Like the add says, there is a difference if you want/need to pay for it. Sometimes the difference is worth paying for, sometimes not necessary. Do you need to spend 100 bucks for a inch and a quarter wrench? Maybe, maybe not. Don't get me wrong, I love a high quality tool, and I have bought and buy lots of them, but I like value too.

 

[davitk]

I'll answer the second half of your question, since I am not a mechanic My recommendation is to keep as general as possible, just because one never knows what may come or go. For example, if the local Honda dealership turns out to be a nob and you son has specialized in Honda, and the next closest Honda dealership is in the next state - well, he'll be moving just to maintain his sanity.

my .02

 

[brettliddicoat]

the other option i would check out is matco they have a votec program shipping is free and almost everything is like 50% off list you can sign up for the program on line i have been buying some stuff off there lately the only problem i have with snap on is it seems that there customer service sucks i have had problems even with a rep when i was in school we had a rep come to the school and i told him what i needed and he kept forgetting to order it it took like 3 months to get my tools


my opinion it may vary and may be diffrent in your area so


brett

 

[ray66v]

Snap-on has a very good marketing program intended to get young people "hooked" on the brand early. They then hope to, and often achieve total brand loyalty. Most of their tools are very good. But, most of the time, you can get a tool just as good, for less money. Sometimes you can get the exact same tool for less money.

It is very scary to see a young person spend $10k -15k, and more, ON A TOOLBOX!!! But, the system is set up to suck them in to a lifetime of debt. I worked with one guy who had a standing order with the Snap-on man, when a new tool came out, "Drop it off and put it on my bill" And it is very hard to convince some of them that they need to live within their means.

All the "Premium" brands are comparable in quality, i.e. Snap-on, Mac, Matco. and the rest Craftsman, S-K, NAPA, etc. are comparable. The latter being "good" quality start up tools. If your on a tight budget, start with those. If not, The big 3 are the way to go.

I started out 30 years ago with a lot of the cheap stuff, (I still have some of them, and they still work fine), and found after a while, certain size sockets, (the most commonly used), broke a lot. So rather than going broke replacing all my sockets with "premium," (they last much longer), I bought those particular ones in the "premium" brands and that kept me from owing the tool man more than the mortgage co.

I have to give Snap-on the edge for having the best selection. Sometimes, they had things like sockets, that were longer than shallow length, and shorter than the deep length. When I need such a socket, It was worth it. (Doesn't mean you have to pay $250 for the whole set of 9).

Its tough, when you heavily invested in one particular brand and the jobber quits, or retires, and no one replaces him. Or, you change jobs and find out there is no one servicing your brand there. Sometimes it is a crap shoot.

Eventually, I had my preference for brands based on my experience, and my co-workers experiences, the service and personality of the salesman, and the service of the company. And, as I made more money, I invested in "better" tools. Then, I often moved my old tools home, for weekend projects. Now, I own more tools than anyone, (yes, even Norm Abrams), and by being frugal, they are all paid for.

Bottom line, invest in tools wisely.

 

[billbill1]

If he isn't good at taking care of his things, top of the line stuff is very expensive to replace-misplaced tools. If thieves are present, Snap-on, Mac, and Matco will be the first tool missing, they are the easiest to -unload. Plus if he doesn't think being a mechanic suits him for the rest of his life, he has some very expensive tools to pay for. I suggest starting with cheaper tools to start out and upgrade later after he gets settled. A good toolbox ranges far and wide in price too, make sure he gets ball bearing drawers with liners and good locks but again, the top of the line boxes are spendy. They do need quality casters for ease of rolling around. One of my co-workers Snap-on box was $12,500 without any tools. It's a very high quality box but unnecessary as far as I'm concerned.

 

[john_bud]

Around here, there is a similar program at the tech school. There is also a lot of kids that drop the program and have 12k of tools sitting in a fancy box. You see them for sale in the weekly shopper for 1/2 of what the kids pay. If I didn't have a shop full of "ok" tools, I'd get some.

jb

 

[Bird]

John, my grandson, who will be 19 in June, is now accumulating some expensive tools for himself, and yep, it's possible that he'll change his mind and eventually sell those tools, but at least he pretty well knows what they're worth and what they'll sell for. For about 5 years, he's been visiting garage sales on weekends and buys brand name tools (usually Snap-On) cheap. Tthen he and his dad go to flea markets and "swap meets" and he sells those tools at a pretty nice profit. But I'm sure a number of kids lose money on their tools, but then I guess some older guys do, too.

 

[Coolnslo]

Another thing to consider is that all the tools being mentioned are available directly from the manufacturer over the internet. This may not always be the most convenient way to shop, but it's always available and you don't have to deal with a rep if you don't want to or don't have access to one.

 

[Coolnslo]

Correction to my previous post. You can't order Cornwell on the internet. You can only look at a catalog of their stuff. Should have said most tools. You can also only look at a catalog of Armstrong.

 

[Superduper]

When I attended the automotive mechanic program, I got the exact same deal. The discount that you are getting from snap on is a once in a lifetime chance for them to stock up on tools that will last forever. I still have mine and that was from 30 years ago. All I've done is expand on them. Today, I wish I could find a source for almost any kind of discount on Snap-on tools. I've used almost every kind. As far as quality goes, I would rank them in this order: Snapon, Matco, Mac, Craftsman. I have no experience with Cornwell as they aren't common around here. I am referring to hand tools. As for electronic diagnostic equipment, Mac stuff are rebadged from other manufacturers. Snap ons are of their own design and never heard anything bad about them except they are darn expensive. Mac stuff, I got a bunch of, but their quality is clearly a step below. The plating peels and their sizing is a little off (at least on the wrenches that I have). This means that while snapon wrenches are right on, the mac might be a little tight or a little loose. Their tolerances in manufacturing is defnitely looser. In the snapon catalog, almost every tools is advertised to confirm to "xyz" specs. Mac tools do not.

Combining the sentiment from several members, air tools, I buy IR. Never had a problem with those. I never felt the need to pay the premium for the higher priced snap on power tools but if you can get them at 40% off, then I would.

Craftsman tools are good for homeowner and hobby use. For every day professional use, I do not recommend them. They DO break and while their warranty is first rate, what will you do when your customer's car is on the rack and the only 1/2" socket just broke in half!? Go to sears for a replacement? All I can say is that especially with their sockets, they DO BREAK!

A final comment: If your son is the type that has a hard time committing to something, then perhaps you should start him with cheaper tools. That way if he gives up, at least you won't have wasted a ton of money.

 

[laurencen]

here in Canada Snap on has a industrial rep, he will allways sell tools at a discount, it has to be industrial not automotive else the truck guy gets upset, as for quality I got a set 25 years ago thro the local apprentice school, a student wanted a few bucks and purchased them, in all some 20K worth with a toolbox that has pnumatic tires and disc brakes, today the set is likely worth over 80K, could count the tools that broke on one hand and repalced no questions, I do not have the same brand air tools. In my shop we use Craftsman, a full set it 2K on sale every year and if you are worried about breakage get 2 sets, Armstrong also have a industrial line and prety good tools, however with the discount pricing its hard to pass up Snap on, just buy as much as you can afford because its a one time deal.