Loader Massey Loader - No dual Function??

[hamdog]

I have a 2009 Massey 1660 with the DL130 loader. For some reason it will not curl and raise at the same time, its like the loader can only do one function at a time. Is this the norm for these loaders or is there something wrong with the loader valve. My John Deere's I have owned in the past the loaders could perform dual function with no issues. I have tried adjusting, performing loader work at high rpms, low rpms, etc. Do I need to replace the loader valve or is there a loader valve available that I can replace with which will give me the dual function? Thank you!

 

[Grandad4]

There may be something wrong with the control valve. Someone familiar with your tractor (dealer?), should be able to diagnose.

A well-designed loader will allow combination movements like that, but performance and refinement varies among the different tractor brands.

 

[oldnslo]

Some models of valves perform dual functions better than others. Not familiar with Massey but were your JD models running closed center system while the Massey in open center?

 

[atsah]

My little 1705 Massey has the dual function, it's not as fast as I would like it but it does work.

 

[hamdog]

Oldnslo I’m not familiar of the open or closed system you are referring to.

 

[roger4400]

I have a MF 1643 loader dl120 and it will do both action at the same time , yours might have some problems with the control valve. It should do both action.

 

[hamdog]

Does anyone know where I can buy a new valve that would perform both functions? Thanks!

 

[Briar Hill Brittanys]

Got this joystick for my JD 1020/37 loader. Works great. HTH. Mark.

2 Spool Compact 1 GPM Joystick Control Valve | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

 

[rScotty]

Oldnslo I知 not familiar of the open or closed system you are referring to.

I see this question a lot and I'm going to try to write a simpl explanation of open vs closed hydraulic systems. Let me know what needs improving
Keep in mind that OPEN circuit hydraulic systems are simpler and are what most .

Open circuit hydraulics are simple, cheap, reliable, and generally good enough. So open circuit type is what what medium sized equipment and tractors use. An open system doesn't store any pressure anywhere, it uses a FIXED DISPLACEMENT hydraulic pump running all the time to continually pump hydraulic fluid around the hydraulic circuit. This pump's fluid output volume and pressure are basically dependent on the pump/engine RPM. More RPM equals more flow which equals more potential pressure.

How an open hydraulic system works is that fluid is picked up from the hydraulic reservoir by the pump, and then pumped around a circuit to dump back in the reservoir. Most of the time there is no no pressure in an open system except a little bit due to the resistance of hoses and couplings - there is only flowing fluid, and a tiny bit of back pressure. There isn't any pressurized fluid that is deliberately stored anywhere.

So in an open circuit system if no control lever is moved what you have is just a constant stream of hydraulic fluid being pumped around an endless circle. To do work, the control valve lever is moved, which does two things: It blocks the return path and diverts the flow of fluid to a cylinder. All of a sudden there is a lot of resistance to fluid flow and that resistance provides the pressure to move the cylinder. How many cylinders it can power at once depends on the gallons per minute that the hydraulic pump can produce. For more gallons/per minute just increase the engine rpm.

Depending on how well the open system is designed, it may or may not have a slight time lag from the time you move the control valve to the time that the cylinder begins to move. And depending on the designer and how long the path is that the fluid has to go to get to each cylinder it's possible that some cylinders will be preferentially filled over others. Normally this lag and difference is so small that it isn't even noticible.....but it's there.


Now in a CLOSED HYDRAULIC SYSTEM, things are different and more complicated, more expensive and maybe/maybe not better. A closed system has a VARIABLE DISPLACEMENT hydraulic pump, a tank to store some pressurized fluid, and the ability to sense the pressure within the system.

The hydraulic pump in a closed system being the complex variable displacement type, it can pump a lot of fluid or just a trickle depending on what it senses that the control valve is calling for. If no work is being done, this variable displacement hydraulic pump only pumps a trickle ... just enough to keep a high pressure fluid storage tank filled so that fluid is immediately available. If several control valves are being opened simultaneously then the initial fluid comes from the storage tank while the variable displacement pump quickly changes itself into a high flow pump to provide enough flow and pressure everywhere. When the control levers are moved back to neutral and there is no more call for lots of flow and pressure then the variable displacement pump automatically goes back to trickle mode.

So the CLOSED system conserves engine power and efficiency because unlike the OPEN system it is not constantly pumping lots of fluid. The closed system also has a bit better response time and usually can do more things simultaneously. It costs more and is more complex. In the tractor world, John Deere tends to use the closed system on medium sized and up tractors, but most manufacturers use open systems.
Enjoy,
rScotty

 

[oldnslo]

RScotty,
Very good explanation of open Vs closed center systems.

 

[finn1]

The open center like my Kioti has is inferior to the closed systems my John Deere excavator has and old Deere skid steer had. The open center is much harder to control, and makes it difficult to finesse the loaders motion.

I would look for a better system if I ever replace the Kioti.

Maybe it’s a good reason to get a CTL?

 

[rScotty]

The open center like my Kioti has is inferior to the closed systems my John Deere excavator has and old Deere skid steer had. The open center is much harder to control, and makes it difficult to finesse the loaders motion.

I would look for a better system if I ever replace the Kioti.

Maybe it’s a good reason to get a CTL?

I don't know of any other CUT or medium sized tractor using a closed hydraulic system except some of the John Deeres. If you ever replace the Kioti you might think about staying with an open hydraulic system but go to a different manufacturer using a different open design.

There's no reason an open hydraulic system can't be almost equally controllable as a closed circuit type. The problem is that by the time a manufacturer does that using expensive super-precision control valves, low-resistance fittings, and a high dollar pump....well, he's spending enough money in manufacturing that he might as well have gone to a closed hydraulic system in the first place. The only advantage remaining is that the open system is still more simple.

The open system on our Kubota M59 TLB is noticibly superior to the closed system on my big John Deere 310 TLB, so it can be done. BTW, it sure disappointed me when I realized that Kubota had a better hydraulic system than our JD. I'm one of those guys who had always expected JD to be the best..... But I guess it's not always that way anymore.

As far as I'm concerned there's lots of good reasons to get a CTL (Compact Track Loader), but you still need a good tractor to do every day chores.
rScotty

 

[hamdog]

I was out playing with loaded again the other day digging out the side of a hill for a shooting pit, and no simultaneous functions on the loader.

How do I troubleshoot the loader valve to verify it’s the culprit? Thanks everyone for all help!

 

[rScotty]

I was out playing with loaded again the other day digging out the side of a hill for a shooting pit, and no simultaneous functions on the loader.

How do I troubleshoot the loader valve to verify it’s the culprit? Thanks everyone for all help!

Your question really comes down to whether it is simply a defective valve, or whether you are not getting enough flow to simultaneously run two circuits. And the problem with troubleshooting is that flow under pressure is hard to measure.

That's a tough question. I don't know of any easy way to troubleshoot a valve. Frankly small dealerships and backyard mechanics troubleshoot a valve mostly by guesswork, replacement, and by putting a pressure gauge into suspect lines. The problem with hydraulic diagnosis is that what you really want to measure is flow rate, but that is expensive and hard to do. So you end up measuring pressure even though pressure doesn't always mean flow. You can make up a decent pressure gauge with fittings for about $100. Which you can then put in various places in the hydraulic line and see if you are getting pressure when you work the loader valve levers. Pressure doesn't always mean flow, but at least you can tell if flow is even possible. And if you leave a couple of pressure gauges mounted near the loader valve while you work the loader you will begin to develope a sense of what must be happening in the loader circuit. At least that is how I do it and it works for me.

Larger dealerships and real hydraulic shops have a tool called a flowmeter that measures flow in gallons per minute & tells pressure as well. Not all do, because that is an expensive tool & costs in the $500 to $3000 range. But it will diagnose a hydraulic problem in an instant with no guesswork. Maybe you can find one on Ebay.

Or maybe someone will come up with a simple test for the valve that hasn't occurred to me. That would be awesome.
luck,
rScotty
rScotty

 

[finn1]

I was out playing with loaded again the other day digging out the side of a hill for a shooting pit, and no simultaneous functions on the loader.

How do I troubleshoot the loader valve to verify it’s the culprit? Thanks everyone for all help!

Most likely, it’s working the way it was designed. My old Deere skid steer had much smoother and faster bucket control, and thus was much more productive than my new tractor.

I recently bought a Deere mini excavator which has pilot control hydraulics, and it is a further improvement in speed and controllability.

I wouldn’t recommend a CUT for loader or fork work if a skid steer could be slipped into the budget.

 

[rScotty]

Most likely, it’s working the way it was designed. My old Deere skid steer had much smoother and faster bucket control, and thus was much more productive than my new tractor.

I recently bought a Deere mini excavator which has pilot control hydraulics, and it is a further improvement in speed and controllability.

I wouldn’t recommend a CUT for loader or fork work if a skid steer could be slipped into the budget.

I've used a variety of both closed and open circuit tractors. If the hydraulic pump is large enough on the open circuit tractor then the loaders work about the same and I personally never could tell by the way they worked whether it had an open or closed hydraulic circuit. Both can work all the loader functions simultaneously.

On tractors 40 years ago it was typical for the tractor's own internal hydraulic pump to not be large enough and so the loader would only do one movement at a time. I haven't seen that problem in about 20 years, but sure saw it a lot years ago. The typical fix if the hydraulic pump on the original tractor is not large enough to work both functions is to just use the tractor's hydraulic pump to run the tractor and 3pt functions and add an auxillary hydraulic pump (and reservior) to run the loader. This used to be commonly done, and you can still buy a number of such pumps that either run off the PTO or on an in-line extension of the nose of the crankshaft.

But I'm not sure that applies to the OP's Massey. The 1660 is a big machine with a decent size hydraulic pump. First thing I would do is test it to see if the pump is putting out the full gallons/minute. And before doing that, I'd change all the hydraulic filters. And especially check to see if the 1660 has a cleanable crud filter. Most hydraulic problems seem to start with the hydraulic filters.

On skidsteer vs tractor, that's an old debate. To my mind it's all about how you like to work and how the ground you work is laid out. On a smaller, smoother place I could see a skidsteer being very usable in tight places. Especially in corrals and inside a barn. But on our land with neither of those, but lots of hills, gullys, rocks, and a long way to travel it is the TLB configuration that works better. One thing that really benefits any loader when carrying heavy loads on rough terrain is some form of ride control. Our JD has it and the Kubota doesn't. Big difference, there. I don't know whether skid steers have active ride control for the loader bucket, but guessing they probably do.
rScotty

 

[oldnslo]

Ability to dual or multi function depends on several variables some of them are:
Valve design: some valve meter much better than others allowing much better slow speed movement
Parallel or series design: Kubota had a FEL valve on some models that was series parallel style valve. This style valve directs the return oils from the lift function to the bucket functions allowing very good dual function operation.
Operator: how precise is the operator in carefully controlled valve movement of both functions? You can’t dual function if all the flow is being used by a single function unless you have the series valve.

I am not sure which valve manufacturers offer the series valve option