Big_Cajun
Silver Member
Do the M-Series engines use wet sleeve or dry sleeve technology?
BC
BC
M-Series Engines
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Big Cajun:
All thew M series, in fact all the Kubota Tractors are dry linered engines (dry sleeve). They aren't parrot bore, they are Parent Bore, that is, the block is bored to accept the sleve and the sleeve is a press fit in the block casting. With a dry linered engine you don't need to add potassium permagnate to the coolant to prevent cavitation of the liners.
The only wet bore engines I know of within the real of everyday use is a class 8 diesel like a Caterpillar 3406E or a Detroit DDEC 60 series engine.
All thew M series, in fact all the Kubota Tractors are dry linered engines (dry sleeve). They aren't parrot bore, they are Parent Bore, that is, the block is bored to accept the sleve and the sleeve is a press fit in the block casting. With a dry linered engine you don't need to add potassium permagnate to the coolant to prevent cavitation of the liners.
The only wet bore engines I know of within the real of everyday use is a class 8 diesel like a Caterpillar 3406E or a Detroit DDEC 60 series engine.
Sully2
Veteran Member
Cummins 8.3 liter and up also.
So THATS what the stuff is in the coolant...geeze! Commonly referred to as DCA. ( diesel coolant additive)
So THATS what the stuff is in the coolant...geeze! Commonly referred to as DCA. ( diesel coolant additive)
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Sully:
I buggered my post. I should have said "realm" and there is a definite line between wet linered and dry linered and that's around 8 liter. Yes, DCA is potassium permagnate and distilled water.. It "coats" the coolant side of the liner walls to prevent cavitation and the resulting implosion of gasified bubbles. which crater the liner wall and result in eventual perforation of the liner.
There are advantages and disadvantages to a parent bore engine as opposed to a wet linered engine especially when doing an overhaul.
I buggered my post. I should have said "realm" and there is a definite line between wet linered and dry linered and that's around 8 liter. Yes, DCA is potassium permagnate and distilled water.. It "coats" the coolant side of the liner walls to prevent cavitation and the resulting implosion of gasified bubbles. which crater the liner wall and result in eventual perforation of the liner.
There are advantages and disadvantages to a parent bore engine as opposed to a wet linered engine especially when doing an overhaul.
OP
Big_Cajun
Silver Member
Thanks for the info guys.
Daryl: Wouldn't a wet linered engine be easier to overhaul than a parent bore engine? This would only require changing sleeves in the wet engine versus maybe reboring the parent bore engine cylinders....please set me in the right direction.
BC
Daryl: Wouldn't a wet linered engine be easier to overhaul than a parent bore engine? This would only require changing sleeves in the wet engine versus maybe reboring the parent bore engine cylinders....please set me in the right direction.
BC
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BigCajun:
You can resleeve either type, it's just harder to pull the liners on a parent bore engine....you need either a screw type liner puller and a 3/4" drive impact wrench or a hydraulic liner puller. There is another way though. Run a weld bead vertically from the top of the liner to the bottom. It shrinks the liner away from the block wall and allows easy removal.
There is another type of diesel though not very common and that is a bored block and no liner. That's a throw away engine.
I'm going to do my 1085 this summer. It's a Perkins parent bore.
A wet linered engine has to have seals on the liners or what is called crevice seals to keep the coolant on the wet side of the liner and not on the combustion side. Parent bore/dry linered engines need no seals as the liners are a dry interference fit in the block itself.
You can resleeve either type, it's just harder to pull the liners on a parent bore engine....you need either a screw type liner puller and a 3/4" drive impact wrench or a hydraulic liner puller. There is another way though. Run a weld bead vertically from the top of the liner to the bottom. It shrinks the liner away from the block wall and allows easy removal.
There is another type of diesel though not very common and that is a bored block and no liner. That's a throw away engine.
I'm going to do my 1085 this summer. It's a Perkins parent bore.
A wet linered engine has to have seals on the liners or what is called crevice seals to keep the coolant on the wet side of the liner and not on the combustion side. Parent bore/dry linered engines need no seals as the liners are a dry interference fit in the block itself.
OP
Big_Cajun
Silver Member
Thanks Daryl:
The information you provided was a big help. Now, I want to ask your opinion on something. If you were buying new, would you buy wet liner or parent bore? Would you have any problems buying either engine type?
Thanks so much.
BC
The information you provided was a big help. Now, I want to ask your opinion on something. If you were buying new, would you buy wet liner or parent bore? Would you have any problems buying either engine type?
Thanks so much.
BC
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BC:
I had to think awhile on this one. That's why the answer is belated somewhat.
You are governed by manufacturing practice and set indusrty standards when going from parent bore/dry linered engines to wet linered engines. Different manufacturers have different adaptations for their respective engines. Another consideration is the eventual rebuild scenario. For the average mechanic a wet liner rebuild would be easier, however, taking into account the longevity of a diesel powerplant in general, most original owners don't rebuild their engines anyway. A good example is the expected life of a 3406 Caterpillar on road diesel. The expected internal life is one million miles. Barring catastrophic failure like a broken injector tip, perforated head gasket or dropped valve, in reality, 90 percent of the engines go the expected life. As far as the new generation of tractors are concerned, I never heard of anyone doing a major overhaul on any of them and any engine failures are usually caused by a total lack of maintenance. In conclusion, so long as you maintain the engine and drivetrain in any given make of tractor according to the manufacturers designated service intervals and use the manufacturers recommended API grades amd weight of lubricants and greases, you will most likely will never experience any failure in the motor or drivetrain whether it is a wet linered or parent bore/dry linered engine.
I, for one, get amusement from the continuing "oil threads" here. OEM manufacturers don't spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on R&D just to list some particular brand (not) in the owner's manuals.
My continuing philosophy is to follow the maintenance guidelines in the owner's manual as closely as possible and use the correct lubricants and API designations.
I had to think awhile on this one. That's why the answer is belated somewhat.
You are governed by manufacturing practice and set indusrty standards when going from parent bore/dry linered engines to wet linered engines. Different manufacturers have different adaptations for their respective engines. Another consideration is the eventual rebuild scenario. For the average mechanic a wet liner rebuild would be easier, however, taking into account the longevity of a diesel powerplant in general, most original owners don't rebuild their engines anyway. A good example is the expected life of a 3406 Caterpillar on road diesel. The expected internal life is one million miles. Barring catastrophic failure like a broken injector tip, perforated head gasket or dropped valve, in reality, 90 percent of the engines go the expected life. As far as the new generation of tractors are concerned, I never heard of anyone doing a major overhaul on any of them and any engine failures are usually caused by a total lack of maintenance. In conclusion, so long as you maintain the engine and drivetrain in any given make of tractor according to the manufacturers designated service intervals and use the manufacturers recommended API grades amd weight of lubricants and greases, you will most likely will never experience any failure in the motor or drivetrain whether it is a wet linered or parent bore/dry linered engine.
I, for one, get amusement from the continuing "oil threads" here. OEM manufacturers don't spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on R&D just to list some particular brand (not) in the owner's manuals.
My continuing philosophy is to follow the maintenance guidelines in the owner's manual as closely as possible and use the correct lubricants and API designations.
OP
Big_Cajun
Silver Member
Thanks very much Daryl.
BC
BC
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OBoneKubota:
Has a nice Darth Vader ring to it.
Maybe. The differences are negligible so long as you have the proper tools to pull the liners. Granted, the parent bore/dry liners are harder to remove, but the wet liners can be difficult to remove also. In either design, after tear down, do the liners just "come" out. In both cases, the liners have to be pulled either through the use of a hydraulic puller/weld bead shrinkage (in the case of dry liners) or by use of an internal expansion plug and puller (we use the overhead crane) on a wet linered engine simply because the crevice seals are an interference fit.
In as much as installation, neither type is harder than the other. The wet liner still needs to be seated, while taking care that the crevice seals and "o" rings remain seated and the liner has to be either flush or seated in the deck recess. The dry liner can be literally "dropped" into the parent bore so long as the liner is properly shrunk by cooling in either dry ice (solid carbon dioxide) or in the deep freeze over night. Final fitment usually consists of rapping the top of the liner with either a brass hammer or wood block and drilling hammer to obtain a flush fit with the deck of the block.
Has a nice Darth Vader ring to it.
Maybe. The differences are negligible so long as you have the proper tools to pull the liners. Granted, the parent bore/dry liners are harder to remove, but the wet liners can be difficult to remove also. In either design, after tear down, do the liners just "come" out. In both cases, the liners have to be pulled either through the use of a hydraulic puller/weld bead shrinkage (in the case of dry liners) or by use of an internal expansion plug and puller (we use the overhead crane) on a wet linered engine simply because the crevice seals are an interference fit.
In as much as installation, neither type is harder than the other. The wet liner still needs to be seated, while taking care that the crevice seals and "o" rings remain seated and the liner has to be either flush or seated in the deck recess. The dry liner can be literally "dropped" into the parent bore so long as the liner is properly shrunk by cooling in either dry ice (solid carbon dioxide) or in the deep freeze over night. Final fitment usually consists of rapping the top of the liner with either a brass hammer or wood block and drilling hammer to obtain a flush fit with the deck of the block.
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Mr. Vader:
Bet if it does, you will loan me one of yours....right??......I never use the clutch anyway. Good truck drivers always shift without a clutch. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
If it did, though I doubt that it would, and it wasn't under warranty, I'd not be afraid to split it and replace it. Of course, I'd purchase a genuine Kubota Shop Manual beforehand.
Bet if it does, you will loan me one of yours....right??......I never use the clutch anyway. Good truck drivers always shift without a clutch. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
If it did, though I doubt that it would, and it wasn't under warranty, I'd not be afraid to split it and replace it. Of course, I'd purchase a genuine Kubota Shop Manual beforehand.
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Mr. Vader:
May the Empire protect us........I looked and I don't have a clutch, like dry single plate. I have a hydraulic shuttle so my clutch is actually a clutch pack, wet, just like my motorcycle. Wet clutches never wear out, that is, until they do.
In all my trucking, 35 years, I've never wore out a clutch in any vehicle. Trucks have ceramic clutches anyway, so the hotter they get, the better they bite. Problem is, they score the flywheel so when you do replace one, you either face the flywheel or replace it.
May the Empire protect us........I looked and I don't have a clutch, like dry single plate. I have a hydraulic shuttle so my clutch is actually a clutch pack, wet, just like my motorcycle. Wet clutches never wear out, that is, until they do.
In all my trucking, 35 years, I've never wore out a clutch in any vehicle. Trucks have ceramic clutches anyway, so the hotter they get, the better they bite. Problem is, they score the flywheel so when you do replace one, you either face the flywheel or replace it.
Daryl I finally got my hands on prints of the " hydraulic wet clutch" and it looks like you are 100% correct. The way I interpret the drawings the input shaft must be engine driven via a torque converter bolted to a flex plate set up with ring gear for starting. I bet this engine fires counter clockwise because it looks like the reverse main pack drive shell is physically engage mechanically until the operator would shift the direction shuttle valve to forward at which time the oil flow pressurizes the forward main pack causing it's drive shell to engage the transmission's main synchronized four speeds.
The clutch petal looks like it is attached to a pressure reducing valve the schematic calls a "proportion" reducing valve whose A port is in series with a compensation valve they call a " modulating " valve. The oil flow comes from a positive displacement pump supplied with filtered oil from transmission case drain. What this means to me is the compensation valve acts like the springs in a clutch disc to take the shock loading during shifting through the four main gears. The pressurer reducing valve lets you slip the wet clutch packs like half clutching a pressure plate in a conventional mechanical system. One thing I can't get my hand on today is the operators manual. Does your manual say to 'clutch' between gears and ranges because I see no reason for it. and at the time of start up is there a neutral safety switch that would prevent the engine from starting?
If not, I think you experence a surge in the direction of the
shuttle valve is in. I'm going to order a M Series Saturday and I want to make sure I know what I'm in for before I shell out $40,000.
Ob1
The clutch petal looks like it is attached to a pressure reducing valve the schematic calls a "proportion" reducing valve whose A port is in series with a compensation valve they call a " modulating " valve. The oil flow comes from a positive displacement pump supplied with filtered oil from transmission case drain. What this means to me is the compensation valve acts like the springs in a clutch disc to take the shock loading during shifting through the four main gears. The pressurer reducing valve lets you slip the wet clutch packs like half clutching a pressure plate in a conventional mechanical system. One thing I can't get my hand on today is the operators manual. Does your manual say to 'clutch' between gears and ranges because I see no reason for it. and at the time of start up is there a neutral safety switch that would prevent the engine from starting?
If not, I think you experence a surge in the direction of the
shuttle valve is in. I'm going to order a M Series Saturday and I want to make sure I know what I'm in for before I shell out $40,000.
Ob1
