Long range shooting.....what do I need?

   / Long range shooting.....what do I need? #61  
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I had called to specifically ask him about scopes and since he has known me all his life he knows I'm a tightwad and he recommended a fix 10x mil dot scope by SWFA. He says the quality is good and the cost is $299 which is not bad. Not sure how the optical quality will compare to my old Zeiss and newer Leopolds but at the price it seems worth it. I'm a bit hesitant to buy a fixed power 10x because it would be useless for anything else....in other words I would not be able to hunt with it.
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<Cough Cough> What company make the, errr, ahhh, N80? <Cough Cough>

Don't forget to look at Nikon scopes.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Besides my camera system I have two binoculars from Nikon. Very impressed with them and they sure as heck don't cost as much as the big expensive binocular brands.

Later,
Dan
 
   / Long range shooting.....what do I need? #62  
I have hunted with rifles all of my life. All in the woods. Rarely have ever taken a shot much over 100 yards. Longest shot ever may have been 175 yards at most. Other than shooting at game I have never been interested in shooting just for fun. But like many people, I have gotten interested in long range shooting. For now, I have no interest in shooting game at long range, just targets. Maybe coyotes. And I'm just curious about what sorts of things I need.....if any, to do some long range shooting for fun.

But I guess I ought to get some help in clarifying 'long range' and then I'll mention the equipment I have. First, I'm thinking no more than 500 yards and in fact, on my property the longest distance I have available for shooting is 300 yards. So to shoot beyond that I would have to go somewhere else. And then I guess I would need to define accuracy. I don't know what is considered accurate at 300 yards outside of parameters you'd use for game....deer, pigs, coyote in my case.

Gear that I have now:

Remington 700 in .270. Fiberglass stock. Tack driver at 100 yards. (I would prefer not buying another rifle).
Leopold 6x scope
Spotting scope.
Bench rest
Leather bench rest pads/bags.

Experience that I have at 300+ yards. Next to none. This weekend I shot a .308 with some 150g reloads my Dad had labeled "practice rounds' at 300 yards. Outside of one flier I shot a 4 shot group of about 5".

I guess what I want to know most is:

What is considered accurate at 300-500 yards?
Do I need a higher power scope and if so, what type?
Do I need to learn to adjust in the field for windage, etc?
Would I need to learn to reload (which I'm considering anyway)?

Thanks.

I have my .223 zeroed in at 300 yds and it has been great for ground hogs. Ken Sweet
 
   / Long range shooting.....what do I need? #63  
I had never done any shooting past 100 yards when I started hunting the coyotes on the farm, so naturally I thought a 223 would be fine for the job. I got a Remington 700 SPS varmint which had I believe a 14 twist barrel (26" long and heavy). Only once I figured out what ranges I actually had to shoot and then started missing coyotes regularly at 350-450 yards did I start looking seriously into what the problems were. The gun shot 55gr Vmax bullets into 1/2" at 100 yards, so I knew that wasn't the issue. I also had a 3-12x42 Nikon Monarch scope on it with side focus, so no parallax issues either.

Then I started target shooting "in the field" with prevailing wind and I discovered that the 55gr Vmax bullets were drifting 18-40" at 350 yards depending on the wind and it was no longer a mystery why I had a problem. The Nikon scope also had covered turrets, making it difficult to dial any corrections and the reticle, being a second focal plane was of no assistance for holding over either. The straw that broke the camels back was the fact that 55gr was as heavy as I could go in that barrel. So I sold off the Remington and after doing some research found that 1:9.25 is about the fastest twist available on bolt guns unless you really spend a LOT of money. So I got the Savage 10 PC. I believe I paid $550 for it. Got a scope base, and transferred the Nikon scope. Went out and bought some Hornady Superformance 75gr match ammo. There is not much factory ammo out there that has a heavier bullet with a decent BC in 223. The first time I fired it was in the middle of a snow squall in freezing conditions and I was the only shooter at the DNR range. It shot 1/2 MOA, first group. So I knew that it would stabilise that bullet under any hunting condition I was likely to see, which is one of the problems you can create when you develop hunting loads in the summertime...

Shortly after getting it sighted in, I had it zeroed for 250 yards, since that was close to my most common shooting distance. Then a coyote showed up chasing turkeys one morning at 130 yards and I missed it. Turns out that when zeroed at 250, the bullet is about 3" above the point of aim at 120 yards and so if you aim center of the chest, there is a good possibility that you just part the hair on its back... That coyote was dumb enough to show up again the next morning (it was an old female with bad teeth) and this time I held low and had a 1 shot kill. There was a 2" exit wound from that match bullet and it didn't even take 1 step.

Shortly after that I had a custom turret made for that load at a cost of a little over $100, you can do it online at the Nikon "spot on" website. Now I just have to dial to the appropriate distance and I am set for drop. Wind drift of the 75gr is half what it was with the 55gr and energy is nearly double at extended range. But on the other hand, that bullet is not traveling nearly as fast which makes shooting at moving coyotes remain a black art. With that, I concluded that I had gone about as far as I was going to with the 223 and that I needed to looks elsewhere for better performance. That was where the 243 Win came in. The site 6mmbr.com has a ton of info comparing all the different small bore cartridges to each other and one thing that stood out was the performance of the 243 Win for wind drift compared to nearly all the alternatives.

So I went looking and I ended up with a Model 12 LPV in 243 Win (stainless barrel and action, laminated stock) for about $750. For some reason I had a hard time getting a one piece scope base and so I ended up with an aluminum base from EABCO.com This will most likely be replaced with a Warne Maxima steel one piece base in the near future. I transferred a Nikon Monarch 4-16x50 from my only other Remington rifle to it and bought some Hornady Superformance 95gr SST ammo for it. It was the first rifle that I had to increase the trigger weight on since it just scared me to death when I first shot it. I don't believe in ounce trigger weights on guns that go into the field... It never shot spectacularly with the Hornady ammo, just a bit over MOA. But the BC on that 95gr SST was better than anything I had fired before and it was definitely going at a decent clip compared to the 75gr 223 ammo. The 75gr stuff was doing 2800fps from the 20" Model 10 barrel, whereas the 243 Win 95gr SST was doing 3200 from the Model 12 26" barrel. All I can say is that no coyote goes far after taking a hit from one of those 95gr pills. In between I upgraded the scope to the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP. Its a great scope, thats all I can say. Next one will be a 6-24x50 FFP for my 308.

I wanted to go better than the SST and thats when I discovered that the 9.25 twist on the 243 was just barely stabilizing those SST bullets. When I tried 95gr VLD's, the groups opened up to over 2" at 100 yards. Checking for stability with a calculator showed that the twist rate was the problem for sure (in winter conditions). So I got my first true "Match" barrel a Shilen varmint profile, 26" long with an Ackley Improved chamber and an 8 twist. I loaded up a batch of 50 95gr Berger VLD's with a maximum charge of powder (for the regular 243 chamber) and did a range trip. Man, even with reduced performance since I was fire forming the brass to the chamber, I got 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

4191602-23-2013%20Berger%2095gr%20group%202%20243AI.jpg


So it has taken me a while to catch on, but I am much better prepared for longer distance shooting than I was just a short time ago. I had to invest some money, but it is a small outlay compared to getting an atv, motor cycle or UTV. I actually traded an AR 15 for a dirt bike to use when scouting the property. I'm sure that guy is happy with his trade in light of recent events....
 
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   / Long range shooting.....what do I need?
  • Thread Starter
#64  
<Cough Cough> What company make the, errr, ahhh, N80? <Cough Cough>

Don't forget to look at Nikon scopes.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Besides my camera system I have two binoculars from Nikon. Very impressed with them and they sure as heck don't cost as much as the big expensive binocular brands.

Later,
Dan

Yes, I am a Nikon guy but all my Nikon stuff is cameras and lenses. Dad bought all the scopes. All Leupold and Zeiss. I have one Nikon Monarch 4x on a Ruger .358. It is an excellent scope. And I have not looked at Nikons for a tactical scope but I will.

I've got a pair of mid-range Nikon 10x binocs that were my Dad's. They are marginal at best. Glare is horrible. And to be honest I've had a pair of Bausch & Lomb 8x32 Custom Compacts for 25 years and I've never needed anything else.
 
   / Long range shooting.....what do I need? #65  
I have used Nikon scopes on other folks rifles. Nice... Have used a lot of photo equipment, and microscopes. The microscopes are nice...

Yes, I am a Nikon guy but all my Nikon stuff is cameras and lenses. Dad bought all the scopes. All Leupold and Zeiss. I have one Nikon Monarch 4x on a Ruger .358. It is an excellent scope. And I have not looked at Nikons for a tactical scope but I will.

I've got a pair of mid-range Nikon 10x binocs that were my Dad's. They are marginal at best. Glare is horrible. And to be honest I've had a pair of Bausch & Lomb 8x32 Custom Compacts for 25 years and I've never needed anything else.
 
   / Long range shooting.....what do I need? #66  
Yes, I am a Nikon guy but all my Nikon stuff is cameras and lenses. Dad bought all the scopes. All Leupold and Zeiss. I have one Nikon Monarch 4x on a Ruger .358. It is an excellent scope. And I have not looked at Nikons for a tactical scope but I will.

I've got a pair of mid-range Nikon 10x binocs that were my Dad's. They are marginal at best. Glare is horrible. And to be honest I've had a pair of Bausch & Lomb 8x32 Custom Compacts for 25 years and I've never needed anything else.

I have a Nikon 10x50 binocular which was a mistake to buy. 10 power is very hard to hand hold but that glass would gather some light. Ironically, per this thread, the binoculars were damaged when they were dropped from a shooting table onto concrete. :shocked: Nikon repair mostly fixed them. :rolleyes: The alignment was messed up when they were dropped but the glass did not break which impressed me. :thumbsup: I bought a Nikon 7x50 binocular and those are much better. I am sure they are not as good as the higher end glass, maybe, but they only cost me $100 or so. The 7x50's I bought have a compass which is nice when I am trying to clear my property lines. I can see much farther with the binoculars and find a large tree to use as a landmark. :D

Later,
Dan
 
   / Long range shooting.....what do I need?
  • Thread Starter
#67  
I have a Nikon 10x50 binocular which was a mistake to buy. 10 power is very hard to hand hold but that glass would gather some light. Ironically, per this thread, the binoculars were damaged when they were dropped from a shooting table onto concrete. :shocked: Nikon repair mostly fixed them. :rolleyes:
Dan

I cannot hold 10x binocs still either and in the woods it is hard to find what you saw with your eyes.

Funny you mention dropping your Nikons. I dropped my B&L Custom Compacts about 10 years after I bought them. I could hear one of the prisms rattling around in there. They have a no-questions-asked lifetime warranty and they fixed them perfectly and for free! They are also waterproof......and have been dunked under several feet of water several times with no problems. I just love 'em!

:soapbox: I think it is a MAJOR problem when high end optics makers also make low end stuff. And most of them do it. Nikon makes some of the best optics in the world. Period. But they also make a lot of low end junk that gets sold only on the merits of the brand name. The problem is two-fold: First, some of this stuff is so bad even someone new to optics would notice how awful it is. Second, for the thrifty buyer it is often hard to tell where in the product line that you are moving from inexpensive junk to a decent product at a fair price. Of course, you can't go wrong at the high end but Nikon, and others, do make good stuff in the mid-range too. It is just hard to know where. End soap box.

Now, back to long range shooting. I'm still plumbing the depths of mrad vs moa scopes/targeting and I don't think we need to open that "gear vs HST" type debate here. But from what I can tell is that to keep things as simple as possible (for simple people like me) you want your reticle to match your turrets: mil dot reticle with mrad turrets? Does that sound right? You see moa turrets with mil dot reticles on high end scopes so I know there is no problem there, I'm just talking about ease of use for someone who does not want to (or can't) handle the various conversions.
 
   / Long range shooting.....what do I need? #68  
The Vortex scopes can be bought with a MOA reticle/turret or with a MIL reticle/turret. The main thing is that the reticle match the turret.

If you go with one of the 10x fixed magnification scopes (there are higher mag ones available as target scopes) then thats all that would interest you is that the turret calibration match what is on the reticle. I have tried some of the Bushnell "Elite" scopes but their turrets are awful. I would be scared to death to have to dial a correction after the shenanigans I went through trying to get it sighted in.

You might consider the Sightron SIII 10x42MMD and they have a 20x power version of the same scope too. Opticsplanet lists them for $577 and I can bet that you can rely on the turrets on that scope. I have heard plenty of good things about the Sightrons, but they are all SFP. For a fixed magnification, that is basically irrelevant though.

The Vortex SFP 6-24x50 is $750 at Cameralandny.com There is also the cheaper Vortex Viper 6.5x20PA which is only $459 at Opticsplanet. It is closer to a 3x zoom ratio and does not have illumination for the reticle. I have not owned or handled one so can't comment except that Vortex is well known to have one of the best warranties in the business.

My vortex has lines instead of dots on the reticle. I personally don't like the dots and I am not using the reticle to range anyway, just for drop and windage holdover if I am in a hurry on a running dog where the distance is changing fast.
 

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