Loader "How much is TOO much"

[Wayne_Freeman]

Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

As a follow up to replacing a broken front axle on my 284 here is a lesson learned. I was moving riprap(busted concrete) and mud using LL1 and 4WD. This combination of slow motion forward and bucket manipulation allowed me to slowly work a bucket full of material and move it approximately 25 yards. That is until the load POP occurred twice in the front end indicating something was definately wrong. Not only was the right axle gear broken but the spider gears in the differential were also broken. I ordered a new axle and received one that had the exact same failure of the spider gears. I think this axle had failed in a similar manner as mine and mistakingly sent to me. The second NEW axle is fine. That leads to looking at how this type of failure occurs. Consider the slow forward movement of the tractor and the weight exerted on the bucket as the load increases. The result obviously is too much torque on the front axle and something has to give resulting in a timely/expensive repair. So where is the line between proper use and abuse? Should I have disengaged 4wd? Should I have been using a higher gear and ride the clutch? Should I have taken smaller bites? Should I have deferred this job to a bigger machine? Maybe by sharing our experience we can come up with a reasonable application guideline.

 

[Soundguy]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

Smaller bites gets my vote.

Remember.. a tractor with a fel is not a bulldozer.

IMHO.. riding the clutch is just a way to learn how to split your tractor very soon.

Soundguy

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

Wayne, my guess is your loader is not properly matched to the tractor, meaning that the loader has more capacity to lift than the tractor has to reliably move. This same thing was common with antique tractors that had FELs added to them that were aftermarket. I'm constantly amazed when I look at the Jinma specs as to how high the loaders are rated on some of the smaller tractors. They have higher capacities than probably any other brand on the market, but just because the loader cylinders can lift the load does not mean the tractor is capable of of handling that same load, leading to your broken gears & broken axle.

If I was you, I would repair the front end and then simply lift & carry less in the bucket.

 

[F100Panel]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

Hey Wayne.. As long as you were fishing for thoughts on the subject I thought I'd throw out my thoughts and experiences.. Being use to running 2-3 yard loaders I was kinda skilled at driving into the pile slow & raising/running the bucket up the pile ( freshly dumped gravel..) to fill the bucket as the machine crept forward.. 1st time I did that on the Jinma I was in 4x4/low range, 1st gear/AG tires... ( sound familiar??) As the tractor started laboring/spinning I raised the bucket as I would on a 12 ton machine... Ooooops.. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif As soon as the weight of the lifting bucket hit the front wheels all spinning stopped & the tractor lunged into the pile & the engine stalled. Admittedly I was VERY lucky not to have spit out anything... Nowadays I leave the Ag tires on the tractor I use for 3 point work where they are needed & on the loader/ backhoe tractor I have Turf Tires. Turf Tires being FAR more forgiving on the drivetrain with the added weights/traction the loader/hoe gives and operating mostly in 2 wheel drive & in really soft earth I'll use the 4 wheel drive if needed as the turf tires will spin but definately in any ground not wet the turfs usually in 2 wheel drive with rear counterweight ( more rear counterweight the better for stable loader work-within reason..) have more than enough bite for loader work... I considerd the clutch slipping thing/Payloaders are torque converter drive for GOOD reason /designed for slippage, a clutch isn't & I shouldn't do that... Just my take/homegrown solution/thoughts on the subject & it's a given I'm no expert on the subject/ I'm still learning compact tractors like most on this site /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JohnS]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

I believe Koyker does do drop tests to see if breaks/damages frame or axle. What is unique about this failure, it happened during a "pushing" operation. Essentially the load was so heavy and had so much down pressure, the front tires were not able to spin. Something had to give, or engine stall. Don't know if that something could be designed to be another part that is less expensive??? I have had my fel (ZL20) up against a tree (immovable) and used creeper range (can't remember exact gears) and tires did spin.

As stated here and in the other threads on this, stay out of 4wd, if possible, especially for heavy loads(but thats when you want 4wd!). When doing heavy objects, take smaller bites.

I'll throw this out for consideration: How about setting the pressure relief valve to something lower? The ZL20 has had issues where it came too light from the factory, and some people adjust without a pressure gauge. Could cause the problem. Not sure what the Koyker 160 is set for? Any thoughts on this.

 

[SPIKER]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

I'm with JohnS on this: I've had my 284 burried 1/2 way to the front axel in my gravel & rock creek pushing & filling bucket (ZL-20) over the brim in hard compacted creek bed gravel. so much so I couldn't break out the load and would have to back up a bit to get the loader to lift it. fornt and rears a spinning slowly. I ride the clutch but not really (meaning no pressure on/in on the clutch but foot on the pedal and down slightly to where the drive clutch is ready to disengauge but not slipping) this MAY cause some wear but I have not broken anything either... BUT my tractor as with the ones JOHNS has are several years OLDER and may have some better gearing in the front ends??? since then FARMPRO has really started selling them and possably the result is that they put cheaper gears or didn't harden them like they used too>? anyhow I've also dug holes in hard packed clay while digging with teh FEL to remove concrete piers that were poured in the dug holes. (talking 24"x16"x48" sized hunks of concrete used for mobile home mounting !) I litterly dug 4 tire shapped holes 12" deep front & rear then backed out and clutched the tractor let her freely roll back into the hole hitting the block! glad I didn't BREAK anything /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) I did manage to bend the bucket and loader arms a bit but heck I wanted a bulldozer and had the budget of a lawnmower /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif I was looking at those gullian dozers and maybe someday /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

anyhow this is the 2nd or third time I've heard of the spider geras snapping like that soooo I would think that it may be a new batch of bad parts? back when Johns and I got our tractors it was more common to shear the front drive shaft off than break a gear so maybe they cheapened the gears to keep form breaking the drive shaft ? lol?

anyhow glad you got it going.

Mark M

 

[bluechip]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

The ZL20 is rated at something like 880 lbs. lift capacity, I don't know how much break out force it can generate. The Koyker 160 has 1500 lift and something like 2900 break away force. The new Koyker 140 has a little less lift and only 1900 break away so is a much better match to the 200 series JInma

Yes Koyker does test the stresses the loader will put on the chassis, but it would take a fairly unique combination of events to cause what wayne experienced.

As for older Jinma tractors being better, I dont think so. Homier has had several meetings to IMPROVE quality of the Jinma tractor over the last year or so, I have seen many improvements as a result, better chassis paint being probably the most obvious, but they would have little incentive to cheapen the quality of the product.

I don't know for sure which loader Wayne has, but I'll bet is is a Koyker 160. I have one customer who broke his front diff. gears twice. the second time we lowered the pressure setting on the loader, he has a 160, it has been a year and no more problems.

The front diff of the Jinma 200 series was originally designed for 18HP tractor, I think we have been overstressing it using the 160 loader. Now on the 300 series, the 160 is the way to go. We can also use the 160 on our KAMA TS series because the front diff is so much larger.

The problem comes from operating with the steering wheels turned with a heavy load in the bucket, care must be taken not to release clutch too quickly, etc to keep from stessing the spider gears.

I think waynes diff gears broke, and jammed and that is likely what broke this bevel drive gear.

I think a Jinma 200 with a Koyker 140 is a great little tractor, and Ihave sold several, a I have also sold several with 160 loaders before the 140 came out and have only had the one customer have this problem with his 160 equipped machine.

 

[CSH]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

bluechip, how does one go about reducing the pressure setting of the loader? Any special tools or gauges required? I have a FP 2425 with a Koyker 160 and a large pile of dirt and rocks from a swimming pool project awaiting me this weekend. Some of the work will be done on a slope and 4wd will be absolutely necessary.

 

[JohnS]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

As much as I'd like to think that our older axles are superior to the latest design/manufacturing /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif , it is probably not the case. I put more weight on what Chip said about the 160 being a little too much for this size tractor/axle. Northern originally used Great Bend loaders (model 220?) which were considerably smaller than Koyker 160 or ZL20. They also had a significant rear axle support, which the ZL20 has none.

Don't get me wrong, the Koyker 160 is a great FEL, and many times wish that is what I would have choosen that, just need to be extra careful and/or look into possibly lowering the pressure relief setting.

 

[SevenCorners]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

I gripped and complained back in Fall 04 that the zl-20 is a wimpy loader. I consistently exceed the lifting capacity while trying to lift out old tree stumps.
I have since changed my opinion. Might just be that it's the correct lift capacity for the size tractor. I am probably trying to lift too much.

Gavin

 

[bluechip]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

Best to adjust with a pressure gage. the PR valve is directly under the joystick, has along hex cap, remove the cap, loosen the lock nut and make a very small adjusment (counterclockwise). ONe idea might be to adjust to where the pressure relieve kicks in while trying to pick up the front of the tractor with the loader. then turn it in till it just will lift it. This is not scinetific, and is experimental, do not try th is at home and all the other disclaimers apply /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[bluechip]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

The 140 uses the same mounting, including axle supports as the 160 It also is faster acting and a litle less money to boot!

 

[Wayne_Freeman]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

I do have the Koyker 160 and it is a brute. Picking up something really HEAVY will lift the rear of the tractor before anything else thinks about giving. It might be good to lower the pressure if we can come up with a gauge and procedure?

 

[thegreatrandini]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

Never use 4wd unless u need it...... Take smaller bites. If ur pushing in 4wd and spinning and lift the weight will stop the spinning and snap.... If u use 2wd pushing and spin u prob are at capacity....That is when I push on my diff lock.....or lift and scoop and clutch. I don't have 4wd.

 

[SPIKER]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

I re-read my post and see why I was told they didn't cheapen the gears, I really didn't MEAN it like I wrote it I meant that the old days it was more common to shear off the drive shaft in front than to damage the gears, and that they may have upped the drive shaft size more and now the gears are the weak link. I been suffering with a cold so my brain is floating on a cussion of snot /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I have been able to lift the rear wheels off the ground using the ZL20 when I had 0 ballast on back but I rarely use her without ballest of some type. I have adjusted my relife pressure a bit (about 1/4 turn which was about 200PSI more hyd pressure exerted which meant about 350 more lbs of lift.) anyhow never adjust the relifes without using a gauge or KNOWING a specific weight item you intend to lift then set it up to break at that weight and or slightly above. by knowing the sq inches of the hyd cylinder and then the PSI can be found if you know the angle of lift and distance away from the lifting point. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

anyhow I ahve seen some of the NEW farmpros (well last fall's loads anyhow) they did seem a bit better in fit/finish than the first ones. though there were still obivous assembly mistakes at the ones I looked at it was nothing that wouldn't be easy to repair if they became an issue. (road show ones not from a dealer ) anyway I haven't even started mine since back in december. I'm looking forward to fireing her up agine soon (though that 2.20+ per gallong is crazy I'm just glad she doesn't use a lot of fuel...)

MarkM

 

[Wayne_Freeman]

Re: Loader \"How much is TOO much\"

Reply to CSH. To answer your question I would say a good dose of common sense goes a long way. Moving dirt is really not a big deal and I have done a lot of that. Avoid using 4wd on a hard surface because a little slippage keeps from binding up the drive train. Now when you start playing with concrete be aware of the weight and force exerted on the front end. With practice you will learn how to work material into your bucket which is an art unto itself. Forward motion and a LOT of lift or extreme front wheel turn is where caution is advised. Just take smaller bites. These tractors are really strong for their size and I don't plan on being afraid to use it. With time and experience you will be able to feel the tractor really strain. Most of us (especially me) get in a hurry or just too ambitous and abuse our machine.