Legal Carry ???

[SnowRidge]

Bing! Bing! Bing! You have the right answer. If he does not allow the search they will simply fire him. If security wants to search my briefcase when I leave one of my jobs my choice is to let them search or loose the job.

It may not be that simple in the case of firearms. I don't know about Alabama, but I believe it is the law here that those with carry permits must obey the do not carry signs. It would be best to know if there is any criminal or civil liability that can arise from noncompliance with a posted do not carry sign, before challenging their right to search.

 

[jimg]

>>I would be surprised though that a law enforcement agency would step
>>into this situation unless there was a very good reason. I suppose the
>>company could hire a dog and handler.
Me too...cant imagine why LE would want to inject themselves into this situation unless the co made it appear there was a drug problem. Then whatever else they found would get caught up in the fishing expedition.

If the co hires a rent-a-dog & handler then I think that has its problems too but maybe not so many as a govt agency would have to explain in court.

>>One day a CCW holder will be killed because they where not allowed
>>to carry on private property. I would think that the lawsuit against the
>>owner of the property will be won and this nonsense will stop. Seems
>>reasonable that if you stop some one from legally carrying then you
>>have assumed responsibility for their safety.
Ive wondered about this very thing. I bet the co would win b/c while they can bar you from carry its not their thing to protect you. It would run along the lines of LE has no mandate to protect you personally.

>>But the courts and maybe the legislatures will decide.
I think its best handled in the legislature (the proper place at any rate). IIRC some states are (or have) taken steps to make sure carry holders can pack on private property. I recall reading about it in a past Rifleman.

>>It may not be that simple in the case of firearms. I don't know about
>>Alabama, but I believe it is the law here that those with carry permits
>>must obey the do not carry signs.
Exactly, state laws differ and thats why I think he *needs* to get local help to understand his options. Every state has groups that can help w/ questions like this. LOL...sometimes theyre even looking for folks to step forward to be a case study. Bottom line though is get connected locally w/ folks who know the laws and issues. They are going to be the best bet!!

>>It would be best to know if there is any criminal or civil liability that can
>> arise from noncompliance with a posted do not carry sign, before
>> challenging their right to search.
I bet many of the states w/ posting clauses also define what those signs must look like and where they must be posted. So, in that regard its not so easy as saying you cant do this or that. They also must comply w/ the laws.

At any rate I hope to hear some follow up about the out come etc.

 

[RonMar]

Being in the military, I have lived in several states, and my recollection of the laws I have studied there were all pretty much "on your person" IRT concealed carry, so that surprised me. But you are right, they are all a little different. I have never lived in the south and you boys appear to be a little different down there anyway I mean that in a good/practical way...

A properly trained dog can and will detect firearms and amunition in a vehicle, the same as one trained for drugs. having done law enforcement for a bit of my career, I can tell you that the interpretation of the officer/handler of a dogs reactions based on training and experience are considered an extension of the officer/handlers own senses. This puts any discovery into the realm of "plain view". It is the same as if the officer walked by the vehicle and saw the gun, bomb, drugs setting in plain view on the seat, or walked by a window and smelled marijuana. A plain view discovery establishes probable cause for a more detailed search. This is true of many things that enhance an officers senses, such as the ion scan. We would swab handrails and doorknobs during a boarding and send the swabs back for analysis on the ship while we completed the boarding. The results of the analysis would determine if we had probable cause to do a detailed search of the vessel for drugs. This evidence fell into the realm of plain view as we did not access any space that we would not normally access in the course of our duties.

I agree, that unless there was some threat articulated by the property owner, I don't think local law enforcement would get involved. It would not seem too far fetched to see the plant/office security bring in a dog for a random search of the property though. As for accessing and serching your vehicle, well security is not law enforcement and does not have that right. But as mentioned, you might find that allowing access to your private property while parked on their property might be company policy and terms of employment. Refuse access when directed and you may be told to remove your vehicle, person and pink slip from the property...

As for liability for your safety in court? Well I would say anything can be taken to court if you have the will and the resources.

I would say that the easiest way to confront this issue would be to try and persuade the company to modify it's blanket weapons policy to exempt those with CC permits to allow storage in their vehicle while at work. There is a lot of info to show that those types are not a threat. You might also be able to show how denying this practice could open them up to other liability. but they can just tell you to not park on the grounds and do what you like. If they don't go for it, well you can always work somewhere else...

It always amazes me how much things have changed and how guns are now evil. I used to hunt on my way to high school and regularly had a gun in my vehicle. There was nothing wrong with that and it was a common thing to see depending what was in season... The older I get, the more I miss the old days.

 

[jimg]

Ronmar
IIRC your WA carry permit does allow loaded HGs to be concealed in your vehicle + on your person. There have been a few instances that Im aware of that the court didnt have a secure lock up (but should have) for a carry holder and the suggestion was made to simply store it in the persons vehicle. I was pleasantly surprised by the general attitude about CCW in WA and some of the laws which I thought were very progressive. In fact the speed w/ which permits are OKd was *very* surprising!!!

 

[BillyP]

I keep a pistol in my truck. I have done this for many years and have a permit from Alabama to do it legally. We got an email at work a few weeks ago stating my companies policy on alcohol, drugs and firearms. We are not to have any of these on company property and they were going to start a random search. From trucks coming in, to lockers and employee parking. It mentioned using our guard or bringing in local police with a dog. I'm not aware of any problems that have come up recently for them to send this to us. Well there are the few that gather around after our shift and have a couple beers, but they have done that the thirteen years I have worked at the plant. I drive 20 miles at 5:00 a.m. and I feel safer with my gun. What is a man to do? JC

All I can tell you is, in Oklahoma, your employer has the right to ban guns on their property.

 

[RonMar]

Interesting... Like I said, it has been a long time since I had a permit. The last one I had was nearly 20 years ago now and it was here in WA. With no real agreements between states, it got to be a hassel applying and meeting the differing requirements at each move so I stopped. Perhaps it has changed since then, but I pretty clearly remember that to carry the gun not on your person in a vehicle, the same rules applied to those of a person without a CCW. To do so legally, it had to be unloaded/amunition separated from the firearm. This was one of the things that bugged me as I didn't always want to conceal it on my person due to comfort. My experience with that and other ones I have researched showed they were similar, with the biggest difference being in the hoops you had to hop thru to get approved. When RollTideRam said he was concealing in his auto, I thought that strange. Guess you learn something new every day...

I have contemplated getting another here in WA as I am looking at retirement now but I have not persued it. WA was pretty easy back then also, particularly the second go around. Mine was expired, but since it was still on record, they just renewed it(I think the military ID helped)

Perhaps my attitude has changed, or my perception of my surroundings, but I am not as worried about it as I was when I was younger. Perhaps it is that I don't travel to some of the places I used to, or the way I used to when I was yonger Around here, I am far more afraid of peoples driving than I am of running into a situation where I may have to defend myself.

 

[David Ferguson]

I would contact the HR department of the company. Inform them that you have a concealed carry permit and normally have a firearm in your vehicle. It may be that the "details" of the policy exempt people with proper authorization (or the policy could be modified to allow such). You will never know until you ask.

You can make some of the arguements above -- you want to feel protected while commuting. If the policy doesn't allow you to leave the firearm in you vehicle, (in their protected lot), then you'll likely be parking somewhere else, and the company may be assuming some risk...

Good luck on the front lines of "the right to bear arms!" fight.

 

[jimg]

Romar -- my experience is *very* recent. Youll be pleasantly surprised by the changes (most of them anyway). Its really worth the time/effort to get one. It makes buying a HG loads easier and you can pack or not as you see fit. You should also consider a WAC membership. Theyre doing a super job of representing WA gun owners in the legislature!!!

Understood about not going in the same places you did when younger. Im not very old but I always steer clear of places where trouble usually sets up shop. Its far better to avoid trouble than fight it off.

LOL about the local drivers. I found WA drivers, as a group, to be excessively polite and terribly slow. It was a new level of frustration for this eastern boy. When I hit the road its w/ a mind to get from A to B as quickly/efficiently as possible. The left lane drivers in WA made me crazy!!!!

DF: Im not sure Id volunteer any infos to HR. Its their business to represent the co to the employees (protecting the co interest). Theres no need to give infos that havent been solicited...and it none of their business anyway.

 

[dmccarty]

Lets say Joe works for Company A which bans CCW holders from carrying on their property. Joe does not want to be fired so he does not carry. A nut walks into work and murders Joe and a bunch of other coworkers.

Is it reasonable to assume that the company assumed more responsibility for Joe's safety when it took away his ability to defend himself?

Joe's survivors cannot sue law enforcement for failing to protect Joe. UNLESS a officer said they would protect Joe.

Does Company A's restriction of Joe's right to protect himself in turn obligate them to protect Joe?

It will be a very interesting case if it ever goes to court.

In NC there are criminal charges that can be filed if a CCW carries onto property with the do not carry here signs.

Later,
Dan

 

[SnowRidge]

Lets say Joe works for Company A which bans CCW holders from carrying on their property. Joe does not want to be fired so he does not carry. A nut walks into work and murders Joe and a bunch of other coworkers.

Is it reasonable to assume that the company assumed more responsibility for Joe's safety when it took away his ability to defend himself?

Joe's survivors cannot sue law enforcement for failing to protect Joe. UNLESS a officer said they would protect Joe.

Does Company A's restriction of Joe's right to protect himself in turn obligate them to protect Joe?

It will be a very interesting case if it ever goes to court.

In NC there are criminal charges that can be filed if a CCW carries onto property with the do not carry here signs.

Later,
Dan

I'm sure the company could/would argue it was protecting its other employees from Joe blazing away, and that the odds were that Joe was more likely to shoot someone by accident than having a nut case walk in and start firing.

Who knows how a jury would rule on that one, especially if the case were moved to a different venue, probably a big city somewhere.