Large acreage question

[woodchuckie]

Must not have as many hungry lawyers in your area. If you don't stay after them around here they'll get hurt doing something stupid while trespassing and will soon own your property because you were negligent in keeping them out or warning them about every possible way they can get hurt on your property.

Information I have garnered from Alabama's Treasured Forest magazine.

On the liability issue:
Someone you give permission to be on your property to hunt must be informed of all hazards you know about.
Someone who pays you for the right to hunt on your land: You must inspect for hazards and inform them and probably take steps to prevent injury.(fill and old well) etc.

With respect to the duties owed to trespassers, there are two types of trespassers to consider. First, there is the undiscovered trespasser, to whom the property owner owes no duty whatsoever. Second, there is the anticipated or discovered trespasser. To those parties, the landowner owes a duty of common humanity (See British Railways Board v. Herrington)é* duty to warn them of deadly conditions on the land which would be hidden to them, but of which the property owner is aware. A warning sign at the entrance to the land will suffice for this purpose. However, a property owner is under no duty to ascertain hazards on his property, and cannot be held liable for failing to discover a deadly hazard which injures a trespasser.
Furthermore, an adult trespasser who is injured while on a defendant's property cannot sue under a theory of strict liability, even if the landowner was engaged in ultrahazardous activities, such as the keeping of wild animals, or the use of explosives. Instead, the trespasser must prove that the property owner intentionally or wantoning injured the plaintiff to recover. The exception is a child who is trespassing to play on ultra-hazardous items on the land. Since these trespassers are considered "anticipated" they are excepted under the doctrine of attractive nuisance.

 

[Dargo]

Thanks woodchuckie. I don't know how much Indiana varies from any other state. It seems that in our state any trespasser who manages to almost qualify for a Darwin Award by nearly removing themselves from the gene pool by hurting themselves while trespassing has hordes of attorneys chasing them trying to convince them that they should sue. This seems to be based more on the presumption that the landowner will have money that the attorney and trespasser may extort.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

IMO, if you can afford the property you ought to be able to help keep up the fences. That is a part of rural living and being a good neighbor.

I will disagree also. I have no problems helping with labor, tools or equipment if needed but no one around me has cattle or even horses so no one needs a fence. We put up fences for our deer and would never expect anyone to help pay for these fences as they have no use of such a fence. If both sides had cattle and it was a joint fence then that is what the law was intended for, to get rid of the hassles over whos turn it is to pay to fix the fence. But if only one side has anything to gain by the fence it is wrong to force the neighbor to pay for his business upkeep.

The closest thing we have here is a few grape farmers have rows on the boundry. Their way of dealing with this is they alternate every year who maintains and harvests the row. The downside is one takes better care of the row then the other so it costs him more to work that row and the other farmer makes more off the row as a result. But since it is only one row they just accept it and make due with no problems.

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

This is just a curiosity question. I read at times people here that have hundreds of acres of land, and I知 wondering do you all manage tall that land or just a few home acres and leave the rest just sit?

Do you fence that much land?

I have been looking at some auction with hundreds of acres but that amount of land seems overwhelming to me.

One of my other thoughts how do you keep people off that much land?

Anyway just thought I'd post and see if I can get a better understanding.

Having recently visited with someone who farms several thousand acres in wheat / canola and cattle, it seems to me the secret is having hundreds of thousands in modern equipment and technology so that one can work smarter rather than harder.

For example the large JD Quads and Combines are GPS equipped. The GPS steers in a perfectly straight line when required, saving fuel. The technology can turn on / off portions of the sprayers saving overlap of fertilizer = money. They can download field maps to pinpoint alkaline soil and the GPS turns off the sprayers at the appropriate time. They can even flag a rock and go back later with another machine to pick it up.

The big combines are capable of processing as much as 20 acres per hour. During harvest time they may run the combines 16 hours non stop.

Even the grain storage bins have electronic temp monitoring system.

Bigger, bigger, bigger seems to be the irreversible trend for farming.

The grain farming almost sounds like the easy part. The cattle seem to require constant attention - apparently they take great delight in calfing in the middle of the night. I'm told the buyers find any excuse to knock down the price they will pay, for example frozen ears, crooked tails = $0.20 per pound reduction.

Sounds like unless one inherits the family farm that several million would be required as an entrance fee and severl hundred thousand for working capital until one sees any return on investment or work.

 

[rgood]

The farmer I worked for worked from 5 am to 9 pm.

 

[Dargo]

Sounds like unless one inherits the family farm that several million would be required as an entrance fee and severl hundred thousand for working capital until one sees any return on investment or work.

I'd have to agree with your quote. A girl I dated back in college lived on her father's farm that he inherited from his father. Her great-grandfather bought 10 sections of land from the U.S. government. That is the amount they were still farming back when I was in college. And, yes, they did have motorized tractors back then!

I forgot the exact amount (age and senility I'm sure), but it seems like her father told me that it cost him nearly 400k to get all of his crops out by the time it was all said and done. I do believe that amount, if it's correct, did include the cost of crop insurance which he considered mandatory at his operation. I then realized how a farmer could be "poor" yet still be able to write a check for a hundred and fifty grand for a new piece of equipment. My little mind just can't comprehend the expenses of farming on that scale.

 

[MossRoad]

It only takes 4 miles of fence to fence in 640 acres, so not really that big of deal.

That depends on how it is shaped. We looked at a 40 acre parcel that required 1.5 miles of fence. And we looked at 120 acres that required over 2 miles of fence. Heck, our 20 acres has three fourths of a mile perimeter.

 

[MossRoad]

Farmers pay the bulk of property taxes while the CEO in town pays very little.

Our 20 acre tree farm is less than $8.00 per acre annually for property taxes.

 

[Duffster]

That depends on how it is shaped. We looked at a 40 acre parcel that required 1.5 miles of fence. And we looked at 120 acres that required over 2 miles of fence. Heck, our 20 acres has three fourths of a mile perimeter.

That is if it is a square/full section.

 

[MossRoad]

That is if it is a square/full section.

I understand. In our county here in northern Indiana there are very few parcels over 80 acres in size.

 

[rgood]

Our 20 acre tree farm is less than $8.00 per acre annually for property taxes.

Most farmers I know that farm for a living, have at least $1,500 acres - So, in your example 1500 acres x $8 = $12,000

 

[MossRoad]

I then realized how a farmer could be "poor" yet still be able to write a check for a hundred and fifty grand for a new piece of equipment. My little mind just can't comprehend the expenses of farming on that scale.

I, too, am kinda shocked by the costs of farming.

Around here you can still get an 80 acre parcel for about $3000 per acre. So, 80 x $3000 = $240000. Over 30 years at 6% the payments will be $1438.00 per month. You will end up paying back over $500,000.00 over those 30 years.

Average corn yield per acre in Indiana is currently around 146 bushels per acre. So, your 80 acres will yield an average of 11680 bushels. Let's say 12000 for ease of math.

Let's say you can get $3.50 a bushel (good luck with that, by the way) and that comes to $42,000.00. Subtract your $17,000.00 mortgage payment and that leaves you about $25,000.00. Subtract $50 per acre for seed (good luck with that, too) = $4000 so you now have $21,000 left. Then start throwing in fertilizer, fuel, equipment costs, insurance, taxes on the land and your equipment and a temperamental mother nature and see what you are left with.... a gamble, at best.

I couldn't stomach it!

 

[MossRoad]

Most farmers I know that farm for a living, have at least $1,500 acres - So, in your example 1500 acres x $8 = $12,000

$12,000 on land that is worth $4,500,000.00 seems like a bargain to me.

 

[two_bit_score]

Yes it is and it was twice as long before the previous owners sold half of it. Property in French Louisiana that was divided in Arpents instead of acres is all very long narrow sections.

Looking at a Tobin ownership map of property in south La. is very interesting. Especially property along the river. Some very long, narrow tracts due to the desireability of river frontage.

 

[Cat_Driver]

See this is what I'm talkin about. This is like walking into an old tome dry goods store in the 1800's with a bunch of good ole boys shootin the breeze.

What a treasure trove of information. Man you guys that do hundreds of acres maze me and like others have said I can稚 get my head around that either.

Some of you that described your 電ay in the life makes me wonder how you have the time and energy left to even post here on the site. My hats off to you boys.

I imagine you work like a dog and then one day just say, that痴 it I知 too old and tired to do any more.

Ya that trespassing thing - 16 illegals sue Arizona rancher. Rancher ordered to pay illegals $77,000

Rancher ordered to pay illegals $77,000

You know my wish would be for all the farmers to get together and price fix like they do with oil wouldn稚 that be great to have the Saudies pay $1000.00 a bushel, for crops.

Seriously I think I would not mind paying $10.00 for a loaf of brad knowing the farmers were getting their cut. It痴 disgusting that the middle man is making the money off the backs of farmers. Same goes for fishermen. I watch that show Deadly catch and those guys are all nuts and they paid a pittance for their catch, while by the tome you sit down to eat the crab it痴 $75.00.

 

[vsteel]

The difference between a farmer and rancher as far as work is concerned is when it happens. Farmers tend to have times when they need to work around the clock (planting time and harvesting time) then slower times like winter. Ranchers are always messing with the cows, but they normally don't have around the clock (calving being the exception) so the work load is spread out a little more. As far as amount of work I think its about equal.

 

[riptides]

...Sounds like unless one inherits the family farm that several million would be required as an entrance fee and severl hundred thousand for working capital until one sees any return on investment or work.

I am an example of that, and I don't have dairy cows yet....

 

[dmccarty]

According to a paper at the NC Extension office the best thing a land owner can do to limit liability is to post your land and do not let anyone in. If the land is properly posted that makes the trespass a criminal act and it is very hard for a person to sue someone for stepping in a hole while committing a crime.

I keep my land posted. I chase out known trespassers. If some asks to use the land the answer is no. Its a shame that the politicians have allowed the law to go this way but it is reality.

One of my neighbors took down some trees and was allowing a man to come in and use the logs for firewood. The guy only had one hand. The other "hand" was a hook. Very impressed he could run a chainsaw. I saw this and said no way would I let someone on our land to collect firewood. Look at the liability.

When CowBoyDoc used to frequent TBN he had two stories about land owners be sued. One was when a couple of people on horse back trespassed a friends land. A horse stumbled in hole and threw the rider who got hurt and sued. I believe the land owner "won" the law suit.

The other was where a child/teenager went to a friends house to ride a horse. The brother of the child/teenager waited until his sister got on the horse and then spooked the horse. The sister got thrown and was severly injured. The family sued the land/horse owner and won. Even though the brother caused the injury.

Its horrible to have to be so defensive about your land but its reality.

Later,
Dan

 

[jayste]

It only takes 4 miles of fence to fence in 640 acres, so not really that big of deal.

Whew! 4 more strands to go! Just ribbin' ya Duffster!

Cat driver, keep in mind most folks who farm and ranch on a big scale are born into it. They don't have to buy their land in the beginning. Some operations will consist of both deeded and leased acres of land. Like before mentioned it's a way of life and in their blood. They are "born to the land". As far as the trespassing thing my neighbor to the East has 700 acres and he lives on te East side of it. Our agreement is that I can hunt it and ride my horses on it and I keep and eye out for suspicious "goings on". I've called him numerous times and have confronted folks myself. It seems to work out pretty nice.
As far as fences go it shouldn't be an issue. Good fences and good code and ethics make good neighbors. When I went to re-fence my north side I found out that the old fence was 30' out in one corner (kids built the last one from tree to tree). This meant that the "pie" shape was to my bad. I called my neighbor to the north and dicussed the survey and I knew all along that around here he could have said too bad due to the fence line being there for so long. We came to the conclusion that the survey was agreeable (a lot of dead and partial sections around here) and I put the fence in relation to the survey. That was an example of how it ought to be. I had another situation where and 1/8 mile needed to be replaced. The elderly couple called me and offered to buy the material if I would put it up. This was another situation where neighbors where being good neighbors.

A horse stumbled in hole and threw the rider who got hurt and sued. I believe the land owner "won" the law suit.

The other was where a child/teenager went to a friends house to ride a horse. The brother of the child/teenager waited until his sister got on the horse and then spooked the horse. The sister got thrown and was severly injured. The family sued the land/horse owner and won. Even though the brother caused the injury.

This kind of conduct makes me sick. I do a lot of riding and if my horse steps in someone elses hole it's my fault! It's not even my horses fault! People need to realize horses are an accident waiting to happen. Horse wrecks are going to happen. I understand that as a land owner you're taking a big risk nowadays letting folks on your land. I apprecitate any and all folks that let me in and work my horses on their land, I tell them so. It's another example of the classic few bad eggs spoils the whole dozen! "While I'm ridin' this skunk", nothing gets in my craw faster than a sorry, dirt diggin' lawyer. I'm not saying they're all bad (here another carton of the eggs) but the sorry ones should be hung up by the eyelids and thumped in the ba$$s until they blink!!

Whew, I guess I'll get off my soap box and let someone else have it!

Jay

 

[Duffster]

Whew! 4 more strands to go! Just ribbin' ya Duffster!