Kubota sues Kioti

Anonymous Poster · Dec 31, 2002

Re: Kubota sues Kioti/morals in business

Richard: The problem isn't lack of "morals in business". Businesses do what the market tells them to do. If people fall for it, business will do it. Some people are willing to consider those issues when they buy, others are not. Read some of the other posts in this thread, just to demonstrate the point. Some people consider more than the product itself when buying, including historical context and so forth. Others could care less. Kioti (Daedong) do what they do because people (their prospective customers) fall for it. Frankly, Daedong would paint their tractors in orange/red/green/blue stripes if they thought people might associate them with other companies. It's not Daedong's "fault". There is no "fault". It's just the way it is. I bought blue in part not because I like the color, but because of Ford/New Holland, International/McCormick, etc. historical contribution to our abundant food supply. Daedong has made no contribution to my standard of living. But gratitude/loyalty for things like that are just part of my values, not necessarily others. Frankly, I would have preferred a "red" tractor-wouldn't have to repaint my implements! Happy Holidays. John

RayBee · Dec 31, 2002

When you're the top dog, everyone wants to take pot shots atyou. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif "Imitation is the best form of flattery" /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif, don't matter whatyou manufacture. ....The question to be answered is do you copyto improve your product or .... sell more units? If Kubota had anawful reputation this issue would never have materialized. SinceKubota produces quality ORANGE tractors many fledging producerswould like to make sales contacts, by maybe attracting passersbywith the orange paint which is as much a Kubota icon as is thebadge on the grill. The badge isn'nt very significant without thecolor. I believe Kubota has worked too hard for it's success andshould get the color distinction it wants. If a competitors tractorlooks like the genuine and develops a bad track record. thatunwanted bad press can easily be transfered back by association. Let the merits of Kubota stand on it's reputation &color. ( I really hope that I've not offended /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif any Kiota owners )this is just my 2 cents. .....RayBee

Robert_in_NY · Dec 31, 2002

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I believe Kubota has worked too hard for it's success and should get the color distinction it wants.

<hr></blockquote>

I wonder what Agco thinks given that Allis Chalmers was the original Orange tractor? Think they deserve and should get the color distinction they want?

Just to clear this post up. I can care less what color they sell their tractors but I do not think Kubota has much room to talk when they made their tractors the same color of Allis Chalmers when they came to market. Take care and enjoy the new year.

RayBee · Dec 31, 2002

If Allis Chalmers was in the CUT market, I would agree with you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif....RayBee /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Woodbeef · Dec 31, 2002

Ahhh......Agco is in the CUT market,and yes Kubota does sell tractors up against Agco in North America in sizes from CUTs up to 100 hp!!

So I guess then Robert is correct,and Kubota originally copied Alllis Chalmers' color on purpose to exploit the AC reputation!!

Anonymous Poster · Jan 1, 2003

Ray: you got it. JEH

RayBee · Jan 1, 2003

Woodbeef:I was'nt aware that AC was in the CUT share of the tractor market.When I was shopping around 2 yrs ago, the big three were theonly choices I had in New England. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I had owned an AC-B modelseveral yrs ago and found it to be a good little work partner, butnever considered that AC was still a viable CUT manufacturer.Well......that's something learned for today. I'm curious.... whatsize models compare to the B series Kubota? I live in N. Americaand have yet to see anything that would compare./w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Thanks for clearing that up ...somewhat. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Have a Happy New Year /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif ...RayBee

MReeter · Jan 2, 2003

Guys,I can remember not soo many years ago when Deere sued Kubota for stealing the "Suspended Deck Patent" that was introduced on Kubotas Lawn&Garden Tractors and more recently, the deck on the BX models and the new ZTR's.

In fact, Deere did came up with this design,and somehow,just months later, Kubota came up with the same concept.

To make it short,Deere lost their lawsuit,and Kubota was found "not guilty" of Patent rights infringments.It will be interesting to see how this Lawsuit comes about,I'm sure the cost of this whole line of B.S. will be reflected in the price of new equipment...

Woodbeef · Jan 2, 2003

Hey RayBee,

No I'll readily admit that I know next to not much about CUTs. Not sure just how big your Kubotas are you were talking about. But Agco sells CUTs in the 24 to 44 engine hp size. These are badge-engineered Isekis just like Massey and the Cat Challenger line also are.

putty · Jan 2, 2003

This is a very interesting topic. When I was in the market for my first tractor it was between JD and Kubota and ,I was leaning towards Kubota. In my search I happen to cross a Kioti dealer , talked to the salesman and he told me tha Kioti was the exact same as Kubota , he led me to believe they were the from the same place. I crawled all over that thing looking to find why such a diff. in price, and realized they did'nt mechanicaly look the same. I got on TBN and asked you guys (who set me straight) , I will not forget such trickery. I have a related story to color in buisness- UPS has been around for about 100 years and in the early days UPS was a bright color sceme; white , yellow, and orange I think. They were gaining a reputation as a very respectable co. you could trust, another delivery co. came along to try to cash in on their reputation by dressing the same colors. The owner of UPS would not put up with such trickery so he changed to the brown you see today and put a pattend on the color , it is Pulman Brown.

RanchMan · Jan 3, 2003

I will not forget such trickery.

Unfortunately every barrel has some bad apples in it, regardless of the name brand on the side.../w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

RayBee · Jan 3, 2003

Woodbeef:Thanks for the info. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif ..I'm curious enough to try and find the websitefor more specs. Never can know too much. ..Or can you? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif ...RayBee

Woodbeef · Jan 3, 2003

Hey RayBee,

When it comes to tractors,the quest for info never seems to end!!

Unfortunately the Agco site has reverted back to a former iteration. Not really sure why though. Must be some type of gremlins at work there. www.agcocorp.com The sites for everywhere but North America seem to be fine.

Kiohio · Jan 3, 2003

Ranchman, That unfortunately is sad but true.
KO

KIOTI's Official Response

Daedong finds the lawsuit to be wholly without merit. Daedong has been selling it's orange tractors in the United States since 1985 with Kubota's knowledge and with no claim that Kubota's trade dress has been infringed. In light of this fact, Daedong believes that the lawsuit is motivated by anti-competitive animus.

Kioti Tractor Division

Anonymous Poster · Jan 4, 2003

Ranchman: respectfully suggest it's not a matter of "every barrel has some bad apples in it" but is endemic in the system, i.e. it's a matter of incentive. we all, including you and I, react to perceived incentives. the incentive for some guy trying to make a living selling tractors is . . . you fill in the blank. Its automatic. for those with a longer range of vision, lying to get a sale offers them no incentive. to those focused on the range of the moment (i.e. the next deal) it is another matter. frankly, the range of vision in our age is ever shortening, the politico focuses on the next election, the corporate CEO focuses on the next quarterly report. ever shorter range of vision. On another note, how do you like you're 4110? does the PTO system (auto/manual) work well? the 4110 is certainly a heavy unit with a very long standard equipment list. John

RanchMan · Jan 4, 2003

Grimreaper -

The "bad apples" is an oversimplification (and an unusually brief post for me! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif) Let me clarify (a little bit) what I meant.

I understand where you are coming from, and agree to a large extent with regards to incentive. That being said, my main point was those who resort to dishonest means to make a sale constitute "bad apples" (and somewhat in disagreement with your earlier post, also demonstrate a lack of moral/ethical fortitude within the business community.)

However, my point was that this is not a characteristic unique to Kioti, as not explicitly, but somewhat implicitly stated in the post by putty above. In other words, regardless of the brand name on the side of the tractor (JD, NH, Kubota, Mahindra, Kioti, [insert name here], etc.), there is going to be someone out there that will resort to unethical behavior (lying is something I consider unethical) in order to suit their (the salesman's) need/desire for instant gratification (money in pocket, tractor off lot).

Not all salesmen (or companies) resort to these tactics. Overall, based on my experience, I'd venture to say that a relatively few companies resort to such behavior, (e.g. your comment about having their customer base "fall" for something - e.g. implies deception - and not all marketing is deceptive). Unfortunately, the generic salesman is far more inclined to be a bit more "loose" with the "truth" in order to "close the deal." Product (or company) doesn't matter - could be the salesman trying to get you in to a tractor that he wants to clear off the lot, that car dealer getting you in to that new vehicle, the computer guy trying to sell you servers that aren't the "best of breed" for the purpose you are buying them for, etc.

Don't take this the wrong way - not all salesmen are "bad people" - smoke & mirrors, deceptive filled individuals - but saying that none that work for "Company X" is not being realistic either. (e.g. just because one Kioti salesman was dishonest, doesn't mean all, or even a large # are and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that all JD/NH/Kubota/etc. salesmen are 100% honest/ethical either.)

I guess what it boils down to is, as you put it, motivation. Commission, sales volume quotas, job security, paying bills (e.g. electricity, employees, rent, etc.) all go in to the "motivation" column. Where the salesman chooses to rank honesty and long term vision (e.g. repeat business/relationship building) is the question.

Although I generally "trust" most companies, I am less optimistic with regards to those in sales. I still believe in the words "Caveat Emptor."

---

As far as my 4110 - overall, I'm very pleased. I've had a couple of problems with it (funny you ask about the solenoid actuated PTO) but overall it is working out well.

The 2 things issues associated with the PTO that have "bugged me" are:

(1) the solenoids propensity to "stick" in the "off" position (going to have it replaced by the dealer this spring) which then requires manually pushing a plunger to "unstick" it on the belly of the tractor, and;

(2) the instantaneous activation of the PTO shaft which can (even at idle) make short work of shear bolts. (e.g. no way to "slip" or gradually increase the speed from 0 to then match the RPM of the motor.)

It is certainly a stout machine, and I wouldn't hesitate to get another one in the future. Is it perfect? Nope. Could it use some improvements? Yup. Do I think I got an extremely capable tractor at a very good price? Absolutely.

Anonymous Poster · Jan 5, 2003

Ranchman: Thanks for your carefully thought out response. Ok, ok ok . . . mea culpa for the broad brush strokes. That said, I do believe that it is possible to treat as a dominant "theme" particular groupings of people (corporate, political, other "groups"), as entities (ok, not every individual in that entity or group conforms to that theme). Further, if there were the technology (and inclination) to examine Daedong's strategy (or perhaps it is the importer), somewhere, sometime you would find decision makers saying something like "let's make our tractor look like Kubota." I truly believe that is a reasonable conclusion. Another way of looking at it is to consider the preponderance of evidence and treat that as a general thrust (or theme) of that group. Compare, for example, the general thrust of, say, New Holland. I realize we are getting a bit off of tractors and into the area of epistemology (how do we know what we know and how do we know we know it, when and how do we generalize, etc.), but, your response was so thoughtful it deserved a decent response. Re: the 4110, at least you can get the solenoid working when it does stick! I gave serious consideration to the 4110 (that Bradco BH they offer is the best-strongest-I've seen). I'm going to have to add 700-800 lbs of weights to my soon to be delivered NH TC40 just to get it up to the weight/heft of the 4110! Since the importer is in Texas (maybe there are more dealers there than around here) you may not feel as nervous about long term parts availability as I did. You mentioned price, I seriously looked at 5 different tractors (makes) and the prices I got for the 2 liter engine size w-FEL & BH were less than $2k from the least to the most. The Mahindra was more than a Century and John Deere, and, slightly less than the NH and Kubota. Of course, the Mahindra has a longer "standard" feature list and a much stronger hoe. In any event Anyway, take care & thanks again for your response. John

northcreek2624 · Jan 5, 2003

Reaper and Ranchman,Please! stop it,you're making my head hurt.....again.
Mike

Woodbeef · Jan 5, 2003

Hey guys,

Something I've been noticing lately,is that these slick glad handing I can sell anything to anybody type of salespeople, are the ones that seem to be spouting these untruths. Could they be making up for lack of knowledge by answering on the fly,with what they think you want to hear to make the purchase? Some of them are quite smarmy!!

What ever happened to the old days when the salesman believed in his product and really knew it,and then sold it on it's actual merits?

These new days of marketing are nothing but problems!! Especially the new smarmy sales force!!

RanchMan · Jan 5, 2003

Grimreaper -

Since we are giving northcreek2624 a headache /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif, I'll make my response brief.

 it is possible to ... "theme" particular groupings 

Yep. I'll agree with that. (e.g. my general "distrust" of all salesmen.) I was just worried some comment like "John Deere (or whatever brand) salesmen would never be dishonest." - yea, right...

...Daedong's strategy... somewhere, sometime you would find decision makers saying something like "let's make our tractor look like Kubota." 

I won't disagree with that statement either as lots of companies replicate the "look" of successful competitors. But I see that as the "bait" to draw someone driving down the road to stop and look. Once they stop, as others pointed out, if they can read, that's where the advantages of orange paint & styling peter out. Sure, a dishonest salesman may lead them astray, but it isn't hard to do a little research to find out the truth regarding the non-existent relationship between Kubota & Kioti. (The whole "buyer beware" thing again.)
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4110: Yea, at least there is a "manual override" to get it working. Still a pain, but better than not having the capability for sure.

I'm not really nervous about parts since Mahindra is an extremely large company and has been making tractors for a while, and, as you point out, since the importer for the U.S. is only about 250 miles away (just “round the block” for a Texan- /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), I'm not that worried. I'll admit I'm at a higher risk than other brands, but as you said, since there are more dealerships down here I'm less concerned. (We'll see if my opinion changes when I take it in to have the solenoid replaced!)

As far as pricing, there was a larger price difference between the "primary colors" and Mahindra down here - and even a huge difference between different Mahindra dealerships. My initial purchase (tractor/FEL, Box Blade, PHD) set me back less than $17K - which I couldn't find anything from the "big three" that was close as far as pricing for a comparable product. Maybe I was lucky, maybe other big 3 dealers will dicker a bit more than those local to me. Regardless, I'm happy, which in the long run is the most important aspect I suppose.

Take care - and have fun with your new "baby blue!"