Kioti Isn't Worth the Risk

AutoUnionTypeC · Jul 9, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

I agree Drew, the only good reason not to consider buying a Kioti would be a bad dealer. But by bad dealer I don’t mean small, some on this board seem to take great offense at guys with just a couple of tractors by the roadside and a fairly basic garage facility. Far too often do I see someone trying to make a start of it being slapped down by the knights of keyboard here on TBN, I suppose it’s a very tempting target sitting behind our computer screens with nothing on the line ourselves and no real likelihood of someone punching back. Myself as long as the fellow seemed knowledgeable, and reasonably likely to be there in the foreseeable future, I would probably be inclined to support him. Properly run this type of outfit can out compete a larger dealership; that is as long as the owner operator doesn’t have dreams of grandeur overnight. A large showroom and facilities is no guaranty of dealerships continued success.

As to offering up a Kioti model when it isn’t specifically mentioned in a thread. Sorry I don’t see a problem with it, as long as it makes sense. I’ve done it a couple of times, but only in the General/Buying/Pricing thread. I believe that my recommendations have made sense even if posted in a slightly irreverent manner. As Dargo pointed out I/we have a vested interest in Kioti’s continuing viability. I’m a very happy Kioti owner and don’t mind saying so.

Regards, Jamie

rtimgray · Jul 9, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Thank goodness I got here in time - I was afraid this thread would already be closed! Can we just skip to the end and get to the pointless name calling (something I excel at!).

The only problem I've got with ranking tractors in tiers is that in reality it is going to be a regional thing. For a while in this area, the big three were represented as well as some other brands...then the Kubota dealership closed and the New Holland dealership closed..the JD dealer keeps about three tractors on the lot and announced earllier this year that they are cutting services at that branch (lawn and garden and parts and service and you can order a new JD tractor, but they won't have them on the lot to drive)....but thank goodness there was Little Tractor and his Kioti dealership, standing like a beacon in the night (of course, now he's also a New Holland dealer). To be fair there are some other dealers for Kubota and New Holland in the area (within about an hours drive) so it's not like you'd be left high and dry anyway, but still, it does get back to having a dealer that is good.

In the last few years, I've been to some farm shows and looked at practically every tractor make offered and they all appear to be very good machines - of course, I did not field test everyone, so I couldn't swear to it - but they all look to be on a similar level of quality, fit and finish, and workmanship, in my opinion.

There have been some chicken littles around here worried that they will end up with "orphan" tractors, and the only thing that I can think of is to ask "Have you heard of the internet?" Finding a tractor that has been made in the last 20 years that you honest to goodness could not find parts or support for, in some shape,form or fashion in some country on this planet would be practically impossible. Of course, some parts are easier than others to find for certain tractors. I harken my example of my grey market Yanmars vs. by 2010 JD...JD is the yardstick by which all other companies are measured by as far as parts support goes, yet when it came to finding parts for my 1964 2010 - one piece of advice - don't go to a JD dealership. Some things could be bought there, but most could not - of course what level of support could be expected for a 40 year old tractor (this is something for those of you who think you are buying a tractor/support network for life). Now to qualify again, I eventually found every part I needed, but it was aftermarket, remanufactured or junkyard salvage - not from JD OEM - they didn't even still have some of the filters for the tractor). My 30 year old Yanmars, however, I have had no trouble getting not only wear parts but internal parts, most of the time having the choice between an OEM part or a salvage part - this for a 30 year old tractor that was never intended for re-sale in this country! Bottom line to this long story - it doesn't matter if it's green, blue, orange, red, etc.... if you look, you will find support - and that's what a lot of the concern is about.

The other main concern - money! In my case, the Kioti was much less expensive than Kubota, JD was not in the ballpark, and there wasn't a New Holland dealer in the immediate area at the time. Obviously, depending on your locale and dealer situation, your mileage will vary.

I do enjoy naysayers livening up the Kioti board - we are a fierce bunch - like somebody else said - "Pure Animal". Heck, I think I'd rather argue than type something constructive anyway.

One last note, as an owner of both a Belarus and Kioti - I will say this; I will likely own another Kioti - I probably won't own another Belarus....unless I get a real good deal!

viking65 · Jul 9, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Bob, thanks for pointing out Mahindra. That one slipped between the cracks. That means Kioti slips to 6th tier.....

I'm just having a little fun in the Kioti forum. They're great tractors regardless of what so called tier they're in or where they rank in sales. Kioti just needs to get their dealer network cleaned up and be careful to whom they sell dealerships too going forward.

RedDog · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Are you sure you weren't drinking when you posted that? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I still have issues with Mahindra being the so called number 4. All that I have seen have been at a dealership, except for one. And I know that guy. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Feature for feature, price for price, I'll match mine against any! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

In fact, I'm ready to go "tractor pulling" with mine!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RedDog

shvl73 · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Hey! Let's keep Mahindra out of it! This is a Kioti thread.
Some of us Mahindra owners can be a little sensitive! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

VictorW · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

WOW, What a battle of tractors.
As someone said, I remember when nobody would buy a Kubota. Now look what has happened in 20 some years.
My Kioti choice was made after looking at the other major three and talking with people that had owned all the brands.
As far as resale, I think my CK30hst will last longer than me, so it's a mute point. I usually keep things until there is nothing left to repair. My '48 8n is still going! Daedong engines have been around a long time and have proven themselves. HST was my wifes choice. She uses the tractor and doesn't want to shift. Who am I to argue if she wants to do some of the tractor work. Being that there seems to be a market in the states for a larger tractor with HST, I think Kioti will see this and start designing if they haven't already.
The cost being a little cheaper was nice and I didn't see anything cheaper in the tractor. I only have 26 hours so far, but it has done what I expected of the tractor.
I've run a lot of different pieces of equipment as most of you have. If you want or need a bulldozer or an excavator; get one. These tractor are multi use tractors to fit many needs.
In short, what brand you buy is your own business. Hopefully, you decide by your needs and finances. Are there a few little things I would change on the CK30? Sure, but someone else might not agree. I'm just glad we have a choice and Kioti is adding to the competition which is good for all of us.

gippolit · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price?

TractorLegend · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Wow, someone is going to take a bullet for me. I'm all giddy!

Maybe a bullet in the foot, but no higher !!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Bob_Skurka · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Glen, a Kubota dealer stated the Kubota pricing right in the range in this very thread. Please refer to that post regarding the pricing, it was posted by Neil Messick.

Dargo · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Since the opposite happened to me, I certainly will not question your negotiation skills. I could not get a Kioti priced in range of a Kubota, and was the same as a JD. However, in a different thread, I saw where a guy said that he saved 8K on the same Kioti by driving halfway across the country to get his Kioti. I simply didn't try that hard. I'm more of a local guy since I'm very busy and I expect my tractor dealer to come and pick up my tractor if it needs service, and to then return it when repaired.

My point? Neither Kubota nor Kioti nor JD are immune from having a local dealer go for the huge gross. Personally, since I got much more tractor with more equipment, and a hydro that was not available in my hp range in a Kioti, when I bought the lower priced Kubota. Since having local quality dealer representation is important to me, I did not try to shop Kioti across the country and did not discover that my local Kioti dealer was simply trying to rip my head off.

For whatever reason, you seem to have a real issue with the fact that Kioti is a fine tractor, but is not one of the more popular tractors in this country. I've stated before, and I'll state it again, I think it is due to Kioti being reticent to cull poor dealers and to grant franchises to more quality dealers. your obsession with trying to discount the quality of any tractor other than Kioti isn't helping the outlook of Kioti tractors among the readers. Perhaps you should learn a bit from KiotiJohn and try to spread the word of where Kioti tractors shine and are a good value, and not create and adversarial position between your being a Kioti fanatic and your apparent distaste for all other tractor owners.

A bit of diplomatic intelligence would be in order for you to be taken for more than a Kioti owner who has a chip on their shoulder for all other brands.

MikePA · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

 Where do you get your facts from? 
From a post in this very thread.

MessickFarmEqu · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

( Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price? )

I sell it, and its more than 18,500 but not much. $22,500 is near full list price. The only feature difference would be that the MX does not have a shuttle, but its also a larger tractor, an L4400 would probably be a more fair comparision. Thats right about 19,000 with a loader. The point is that pricing is regional and the mantra that Kioti is always cheaper by some huge margin is simply not true in all areas.

Someone mentioned somthing about Mahindra being #4. I saw firm numbers about a year about with Mahindra having US sales of just over 8000 units. They know that from port records. I have never heard anyone from either Kubota or NH ever mention Kioti. 2-3 days ago I found on on of their international website that they had about 50mil of US sales with 5 mil in profits. If you figure an average sale price of 16k and deduct some for parts volume, etc. Its safe to assume that Kioti is right about 3,000 units/year. Thats less than half the sales of Mahindra.

shoppintractors · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

 2-3 days ago I found on on of their international website that they had about 50mil of US sales with 5 mil in profits. If you figure an average sale price of 16k and deduct some for parts volume, etc. Its safe to assume that Kioti is right about 3,000 units/year. 

It also says those numbers are from 2003......

Daedong is also increasing their engine production from 20,000 to 48,000 by 2006.

Daedong announced a new investment plan for engine facilities. The total investment budget is USD 37,576,439 for the full product capacity of 48,000 Engines from current 20,000 Engines, which is planned to be accomplished by the end of May 2006.


Don

gippolit · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

( ( Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price? )

I sell it, and its more than 18,500 but not much. $22,500 is near full list price. The only feature difference would be that the MX does not have a shuttle, but its also a larger tractor, an L4400 would probably be a more fair comparision. Thats right about 19,000 with a loader. The point is that pricing is regional and the mantra that Kioti is always cheaper by some huge margin is simply not true in all areas.

)

I don't think you would sell for 19K. Second would that include a front grill gard? 55am alternator, rear hydro values, Shuttle shift tran? When someone makes statement they are correct if you add all those features???? Don't you think?

Bob_Skurka · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Glen, Why must you attack people?

On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? The vast majority of people never draw more than 12 to 15 amps . . . at night with their lights on.

Further, those rare few of us who have added extra lights, and we are pretty rare, don't typically draw more than about 40amps when running the extra lights. Any surplus above the draw is essentially unused and pointless. For that matter, there is no real reason why you couldn't run extra lights (and understand that probably 85% of the small tractor owners don't add extra lights) and simply draw your battery down a bit and it will recharge as soon as the lights are turned off. There are dozens of examples of that right here on TBN with the sub-CUT owners.

Please understand that TBN members seem to be tractor hobbiests and we seem to "pimp our rides" far more than typical owners who never do anything to their tractors. I'm pretty darn sure that the local dealer who installed my TNT system thinks I am nuts, the mechanic I deal with said they never had a request to install anything like that on a tractor under 50hp, not even for the professional landscaper's who are their customers. As for things like rear remotes, I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. So assume $500 installed (and people have quoted lower prices here on TBN so I am being pretty fair in the $500 guess). Sure that takes the price up a bit, roughly $19,100 for the MX5000, but it is on a tractor with 5 more horsepower. Or, with the L4400, the price would be about $19,500 with the remotes. So I think that Neil's point is that Kubota is not universally overpriced as you seem to imply. Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. Further, rico304, who is pricing small tractors right now found Kioti to be a bit more than a small Kubota, but also that Kioti dealers prices were very inconsistent with some being a little more and some being a lot more.

What you can't seem to grasp is that people here are NOT criticizing the brand. But you seem to take great pleasure in simply attacking people. TBN is not about that. The one issue that has universally been pointed out is that Kioti has SOME serious dealer issues. You focus on parcing words and phrases, much like a politician, rather than on the issue.

As for your assertation that Neil might be a liar when you stated: I don't think you would sell for 19K. I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership for great prices, professional assistance and service before you start slinging mud that you think rather than real facts.

----------------

shoppingtractors (Don), I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say the sales went up 50%, that would put sales at 4500 units? That is pretty good, but its still a long cry from Mahindra's numbers, and Mahindra grew in sales over the past year, pretty substantially from what I've been told (and Kubota also had a record year too). It is also my understanding that for 2004 the entire industry went up.

I guess the question is, did the ratios change? Speaking only to tractors 50hp and below . . . We know Kubota has increased market share nationally to something over 50%, we know in some regions it is 60%. We know that JD and New Holland both lost a bit of market share, but their sales volume was level. Personally I think Kioti is growing and on the right track, but I also think the same is true for several other brands. Kioti & Mahindra, in my mind, are probably going to see increases in the coming years. Both, however, have more dealer problems than they need. Both have that as their hurdle.

shoppintractors · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

 On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? 
It's because Kioti puts the largest light package on their tractors.

I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. 
Why not let Neil speak for himself?
 Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. 
Dargo made a visit or two and posts the same visit many, many, many times.

I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. 
I see Neil's post not much different than XYZ tractor company comparing their new models using dated machines from ABC & DEF tractor company.

Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say.....
Bob, as **** about numbers as you are, why are you even remotely speculating? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 Glen, Why must you attack people? 
Bob, give it a break. You have made some very controversial posts yourself. Been deleted more than once. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black. On the other side of the coin you've made many excellent posts. I did however miss the memo nominating you for
'hall monitor'. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership........

You might want to advise Neil to take out some
paid advertising in the KUBOTA forum. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don

gippolit · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

( Glen, Why must you attack people?

On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? The vast majority of people never draw more than 12 to 15 amps . . . at night with their lights on.

Further, those rare few of us who have added extra lights, and we are pretty rare, don't typically draw more than about 40amps when running the extra lights. Any surplus above the draw is essentially unused and pointless. For that matter, there is no real reason why you couldn't run extra lights (and understand that probably 85% of the small tractor owners don't add extra lights) and simply draw your battery down a bit and it will recharge as soon as the lights are turned off. There are dozens of examples of that right here on TBN with the sub-CUT owners.

Please understand that TBN members seem to be tractor hobbiests and we seem to "pimp our rides" far more than typical owners who never do anything to their tractors. I'm pretty darn sure that the local dealer who installed my TNT system thinks I am nuts, the mechanic I deal with said they never had a request to install anything like that on a tractor under 50hp, not even for the professional landscaper's who are their customers. As for things like rear remotes, I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. So assume $500 installed (and people have quoted lower prices here on TBN so I am being pretty fair in the $500 guess). Sure that takes the price up a bit, roughly $19,100 for the MX5000, but it is on a tractor with 5 more horsepower. Or, with the L4400, the price would be about $19,500 with the remotes. So I think that Neil's point is that Kubota is not universally overpriced as you seem to imply. Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. Further, rico304, who is pricing small tractors right now found Kioti to be a bit more than a small Kubota, but also that Kioti dealers prices were very inconsistent with some being a little more and some being a lot more.

What you can't seem to grasp is that people here are NOT criticizing the brand. But you seem to take great pleasure in simply attacking people. TBN is not about that. The one issue that has universally been pointed out is that Kioti has SOME serious dealer issues. You focus on parcing words and phrases, much like a politician, rather than on the issue.

As for your assertation that Neil might be a liar when you stated: I don't think you would sell for 19K. I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership for great prices, professional assistance and service before you start slinging mud that you think rather than real facts.

----------------

shoppingtractors (Don), I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say the sales went up 50%, that would put sales at 4500 units? That is pretty good, but its still a long cry from Mahindra's numbers, and Mahindra grew in sales over the past year, pretty substantially from what I've been told (and Kubota also had a record year too). It is also my understanding that for 2004 the entire industry went up.

I guess the question is, did the ratios change? Speaking only to tractors 50hp and below . . . We know Kubota has increased market share nationally to something over 50%, we know in some regions it is 60%. We know that JD and New Holland both lost a bit of market share, but their sales volume was level. Personally I think Kioti is growing and on the right track, but I also think the same is true for several other brands. Kioti & Mahindra, in my mind, are probably going to see increases in the coming years. Both, however, have more dealer problems than they need. Both have that as their hurdle.

)

Bob,
It seems to me any extra features Kioit has is not what people hear on TNB need and or want? Hum I guess your the TNB police! I stated facts and once again you stated Bob's versions of facts.

MessickFarmEqu · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

Gosh guys, I don't see what the big deal is here. One point was made, that point is the pricing is not always cheaper like people claim it is... thats a plain and simple fact. I'd guess that dealer net on those models is probably lower, it should be, however the volumes are so low that the dealer margins have to be higher. The numbers I posted on some of the Kubota models are not firm sale prices, it is very possible for those tractors to sell around those prices. If you want to get into a feature for feature comaprison thats for a different thread.

Yes, the numbers off Kioti's website are from 03... if you have some more current information I'd like to see it. As of now, thats the best I have seen and the only thing we have to go off of. This is nothing that anyone should be taking offence to, its simple discussion about the company and I appologize if someone is offended by it. Not too long ago someone posted that Zetor sells about 500 tractors a year, but no one screamed wolf about that.

Bob_Skurka · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk

This is getting pretty silly folks. I have consistently defended Kioti in this thread since it was restarted, but pointed out that some strengths might not be as strong as some would spout. But still people are attacking.

So to Don, OK I've seen prices on adding rear remotes in the range of $350 to $500. I quoted $500 because it seemed more appropriate to guess up to the higher number.

As for you telling me to instruct Neil to take out an advertisement, he can do what he wants. I am not his boss and you are not mine.

As for Dargo's experiences, he shopped his dealers when he was in the market. Why is that experience not valid today when it was valid last year when he bought? He has a right to now post what he posted, and it is reasonable and fair. And it illustrates a point that even several Kioti owners pointed out . . . dealer problems.

As for me posting controversial posts, sure I do. But I don't attack people, which is what Glen seems to do. And for that matter, when I have been wrong, I've admitted it. But the controversy of my posts is that they often stir up emotion, I leave that at the door. The fights that start after others start getting emotional are pretty obvious. The problem is I am NOT brand loyal, and I am willing to point out problems with any brand. Buyers need to get honest assessments of the products, not emotional blather that is nothing more than a glossed over sales pitch.

As for Kioti putting bigger light packages in than any other brand? Huh? Many brands, both big 3 and minor, put 4 55-watt headlamps and a full compliment of tail lamps, and offer rear Aux lights. That's all pretty much the same by my book.

And finally to Glen, you say it is my version of the truth, but in fact you can't really refute my words and have never been able to. I could think about what you wrote, but it just isn't worth considering.