Kioti CK vs. Kubota B series

[coasterez]

I love my CK25. It was bought strictly for digging and ground engagement. So weight was very important to me, and I didn't want to have to deal with putting on/taking off weights. Weight to put the most power to the ground, and to gain the greatest stability while carrying a load is paramount for me. Also, I found the bota 7x10 series to have a very narrow width, which concerned me for hills. Anyway, Both companies make good machines. And the Grand L's are very nice. So, let your tasks dictate what you buy. If manueverability is very important, and there is a dealer reasonably close. I suggest you also check out the TYM T273 - manueverablity of a B26 with the capabilities near a CK30 at a few hundred pounds lighter.

 

[patrick_g]

Somewhere in all this someone said something that disagrees with my personal observation.

I NEED significant weight added to the rear of my little Kubota (L4610HSTC) in order to use the FEL to good advantage. I have more hydraulics than tractor. This is not a complaint. I carry my 1300 lb HD box blade for ballast. I also have maxed out the rear wheel weights. I can't lift and carry a big round bale without a seriously heavy implement on the 3PH. Likewise a full bucket of gravel using the FEL.

However, I can drop the heavy implement and remove the FEL (super easy on my model as it stands upright on its own props) and have a pretty light weight tractor that doesn't recompact the dirt as fast as the roto tiller breaks it up. Likewise to run a subsoiler or middle buster and make progress. Stripped except for cast iron wheel weights and brush hog I can mow without as much collateral damage to the field when it may be a tad soft. (I don't need wheel weights to mow but I am too lazy to take them on and off casually.)

I think for the general case it should be obvious that a strong light tractor can be made heavy (ballasted) as needed whereas a heavy tractor can't be lightened. There is always going to be folks for whom light is never needed or appreciated and folks who use a tractor for a lawn mower who will never weight it down but in general I think the majority of users would profit from having the choice and not be STUCK with a heavy tractor all the time.

As regards the shuttle shift or other "convenient" shifting mechanism other than HST... They certainly are better than pure old fashioned gears but unless you have three hands or don't do much close in FEL work (or are maybe just naturally a slower paced individual and that is perfectly OK) you are kidding yourself that on average a good operator with HST isn't going to do more and do it easier than a shuttle shifter. Not condeming shuttle shift. They work fine for FEL operations, way better than straight old fashioined gears. There is a spectrum of shifting convenience. Shuttle shift is above the middle but a clear step below HST. If you don't really hussle with the HST the shuttle will not hold you back. I have used both. I make a game out of trying to do repetitive tasks efficiently and quickly so as to reduce the boredom. I'd like to see a shuttle shifter try to out perform me on an HST for a few hours. We don't all WORK the machine and that is OK. I have often been asked why I take flailing at dirt so seriously. It is OK if you don't and if you don't, a shuttle shift will not be a meaningful reduction in performance for you.

As to maint... I have worked the heck out of my 'bota and the only tranny maint is fluid top off and infrequent changes.

Please, I am not trying to pick a fight with ANY shuttle shifter with a HEAVY tractor. Any particular combination of circumstances can make nearly any choice of tractor trannys and weights an OK setup. I was, in general, addressing the majority of users not any specific special situation with the exception of the HST doing more in intense usage. I'm not so sure most folks go at FEL work like they were killling snakes the way I do.

Pat

 

[hosejockey2002]

Patrick, thanks for your comments. I have pretty much settled on HST. I have plenty of experience on all three types (my current tractor is gear) and I know that HST will give me the best productivity. The weight issue is not going to be a huge one in me making my final decision. My main usage will be ground engaging and BH work, where weight is generally an advantage. I won't do any finish mowing and probably little field mowing. I am leaning toward the smaller side, whether I go with Kubota or Kiota. My current machine can squeak through a 50" wide opening, which has served me well on several jobs. I really don't want to give that up, so I'm going to look real hard at the CK20 HST and Kubota B7510 DTN HSD. The two machines are close in size and specifications. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, and by "behind the wheel" impression will be a big factor in which machine I ultimately get. Since my dealer carries both, I can compare side by side. For the BH, I really like the Woods X series. It appears to be superior to both the Kubota and Kioti factory backhoes. The dealer I'm working with also carries and installs Woods implements so I should be able to look at and demo them.

 

[patrick_g]

Jockey, I think either could be a good tractor for you. I am predjudiced for the Kubota due to my experiences and their 100 yr track record but the other could be a terrific tractor for all I know.

Pat

 

[Oleozz]

I don't know which company would be best but you have to remember that for every Kioti owner on this site there are probably 20 Kubota owners, sooo the responses should and would favor the Kubota.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I don't know which company would be best but you have to remember that for every Kioti owner on this site there are probably 20 Kubota owners, sooo the responses should and would favor the Kubota.

Yup it truely is amazing. With a 60% marketshare for Kubota and less than a 5% marketshare for Kioti it really is amazing how many Kioti owners frequent this site. They certainly outnumber brands like Mahindra that have far more owners, but far less people posting. Maybe it is just that Kioti owners are smart enough to use a computer

 

[IslandTractor]

Yup it truely is amazing. With a 60% marketshare for Kubota and less than a 5% marketshare for Kioti it really is amazing how many Kioti owners frequent this site. They certainly outnumber brands like Mahindra that have far more owners, but far less people posting. Maybe it is just that Kioti owners are smart enough to use a computer

Well, as someone who found TBN while trying to purchase a Kubota 7510 and who finally bought a Kioti CK20, I'll comment on this. I think Kioti benefits tremendously from the simple association with other better known tractor brands discussed on TBN. If someone says "hey, I like my Kioti and it has x,y,z features that the Kubota didn't have", that may not sell the Kioti but it may induce someone to actually seek out a dealer to have a look. That is what happened in my case. Just getting someone to enter a showroom or see tractors on a lot is a huge step for the "off brands" or second tier tractors. In my case it was coupled with a rather disinterested local Kubota dealer, a decent but complex transaction possibility with a regional Kubota dealer and the happy circumstance of finding a slightly used CK20 on the local Kioti dealer's lot that he was willing to deal on. I doubt I would have jumped at the opportunity had I not been aware (through TBN) of the pros/cons of Kioti vs Kubota. In the end, for me, it was a combo of a better deal (slightly used with 28hrs on the clock saved me $2500), pleasant and low pressure salesman (handed me the keys and pointed a path to a field next to the dealership to try out the CK20) and the realization (after seen the CK20) that the B7510 was not as modern or fully featured as the CK20. I traded Kubota's stellar reputation and #1 status for the better bang for the buck from the upstart Kioti. Thanks to TBN I already knew that while Kioti was way down the list in sales, that they had actually been a contract manufacturer for Kubota which certainly allayed concerns about a "new" manufacturer. Had there had been a Mahindra dealer nearby I might well be driving a red tractor now so there was a certain amount of luck or random chance in where I finally chose to write a check.

So, from a selfish perspective, I think Bob's comment (smart enough to use a computer " is partially correct. Access to the computer gives one lots more reassuring information than a simple trip to the dealer or watching whatever your neighbor bought. The other part is that I think Kioti attracts people who are willing to take a bit more risk for a better deal (just a bit...the real risk takers are in the Chinese tractor forum ). I also think that the individual Kioti dealer counts for a lot. As many have commented on in past posts, Kioti dealers are sometimes small shops that charge full retail and are no great bargain at all compared to Kubota. Others seem to be smart aggressive businessmen who know how to undercut the competition and sell tractors even against a brand like Kubota.

I suspect that Kioti is overrepresented on TBN partially because the same group that uses the computer to help themselves do research on a computer purchase is more likely to want to use the computer to learn more about maintenance etc rather than just assume the local orange or green tractor dealer will take care of it. I betcha that a huge proportion of Kubota and JD owners just rely on their dealer and don't bother frequenting a site like TBN much at all.

 

[dfkrug]

A shortcoming is that you can't have a Kubota Backhoe on this model (cab interferes) and you void the warranty if you mount an aftermarket hoe. I have seen pictures of several tractors broken in half because someone thought it worth the risk to get a hoe. You can install enough subframe reinforcement to hold an aftermarket hoe but I elected to not go there.
Pat

Kubota says you can use their 3-pt hoe (4690) on that machine, but
no one else's 3-pt hoe. I am against using 3-pt hoes, but the 4610
is a great machine that could have a custom subframe built for it and
then use any hoe, without voiding warranties.

 

[Volfandt]

A couple yrs back I was compareing the B7510 vs the CK20 and as far as the test drive went, there wasn't any appreciable difference between them. The FEL operated similarly, the ground speed was about the same, their ability to climb inclines was the same also. Both HST's whined about the same and the operators station/ergonomics was about the same. Basically both machines seemed to be quite equal as I did nothing in the test drives to determine if weight would be an issue. Course in my case a lower weight is more benefitial.
In the end there was 3 reasons why I ruled out the Kioti CK20.
#1, The FEL hydraulic lines interfered with the pedals. I know that I could have probably tied them back out of the way but this made me question the "fit & finish" and placement of the FEL joy stick ruled out right side egress/degress.

#2, Price, The Kioti dealer (the only one within 75 miles of me btw) just wouldn't deal. I wasn't privy to any list pricing but I'm guessing he was trying to get list. The CK20 was pricing out a good $900 higher than the B7510 and this dealer was a good 50 miles away whereas the closest Kubota dealer was only 10 miles away. I made two stops at this dealer and he wouldn't budge either time.

#3, Presence, There just aren't many Kioti's around here. Matter of fact I've yet to see one working and/or sitting in a field locally. The dealer didn't have a CK20 reference I could talk to either.
$17K - 18K is big $$$'s to me and I wanted that "feel good" before I dropped it on a tractor.

So I went w/Kubota as it worked out better for me.

Ironically, The dealer that used to carry both Kioti and Cub no longer carries Kioti. He's replaced Kioti with Branson.

Determining what tractor brand to go for isn't a cut & dried easy decision. Each situation has differing requirements and determinators.

If one can wrench their own machinery then having a good dealer close by isn't as important as it is for one that wants the dealer to do scheduled their maintenance.

If one has lots of $$$'s then paying list for them isn't that big an issue where as it's THE important issue for those that aren't living in the large green

If one needs the machine primarily for ground engagement type work then a heavier weight is an important issue. If one's primary useage is for turf maintenance then a lighter weight is an important issue.
If one plans to do both equally it's important to realize that weight can be added to a lighter machine when needed then removed when not.

Most machines that are in the same size class are so close together in general capabilities that choosing a brand based on just the color and or it's particular look is generally a safe bet too.

There have been posters in this thread thats shown why they went with either machine and all the reasons were valid and good for them.

I recommend to go for the machine that best fits your primary needs and is the best deal.

Good luck

 

[Oleozz]

A lot of excellent points in this thread, I AM NOT a devoted Kioti fan yet and will not be until my tractor gives me at least five years of trouble free operation. I bought a Kioti for some of the reasons that Island Tractor mentioned, price and features. I have been and still am a JD admirer, we had one for six years and it performed flawlessly. The reason I am not driving a Deere is basically because of their unwillingness to move just a bit on price and their attitude that JD is king in this area and if I bought a "lesser" model I was a fool. Again, I guess time will answer that question!

 

[patrick_g]

I don't know which company would be best but you have to remember that for every Kioti owner on this site there are probably 20 Kubota owners, sooo the responses should and would favor the Kubota.

True, if and only if Kubota owners are mostly happy and satisfied owners.

Pat

 

[IslandTractor]

In the end there was 3 reasons why I ruled out the Kioti CK20.
#1, The FEL hydraulic lines interfered with the pedals. I know that I could have probably tied them back out of the way but this made me question the "fit & finish" and placement of the FEL joy stick ruled out right side egress/degress.

Not sure what you mean here as the FEL lines don't interfere at all with my pedals. I wonder if the dealer installed them incorrectly on the machine you looked at.

I agree that Kioti pricing can be hit or miss. Some of the smaller dealers seem to think they don't need to discount to be competitive. Wrong. Discounted Kubota will always beat a list price equivalent Kioti.

 

[Volfandt]

Not sure what you mean here as the FEL lines don't interfere at all with my pedals. I wonder if the dealer installed them incorrectly on the machine you looked at.

You could be right, they only had 3 Kioti's on their lot and they didn't seem to know them very well.

It would have been interesting had that CK20 priced lower than the B7510, as I was still looking for machines in that class. Who knows, I may have never went back and tried out the BX23

 

[patrick_g]

Kubota says you can use their 3-pt hoe (4690) on that machine, but
no one else's 3-pt hoe. I am against using 3-pt hoes, but the 4610
is a great machine that could have a custom subframe built for it and
then use any hoe, without voiding warranties.

I don't understand how having a custom (NON KUBOTA) sub frame and non-Kubota recommended hoe would not void any warranty.

I'm not a big fan of 3PH hoes but was also ignorant of the one you mentioin by Kubota so I will have to take a look. I don't need a KING KONG hoe and maybe the 3PH model will work for me. At the time I bought my Grand L 4610HSTC I was told point blank that I coiuld not have a Kubota hoe as it clashed with the cab (couldn't be attached much less swivel the seat to operate.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look. Maybe the 3PH is a newer design than my tractor and wasn't available when I bought it. Thanks again.

Now, as regards the FEL joy stick blocking or interfering with ingress/egress through the starboard door or side (with no cab.) So? Same story on my cab model Kubota. I am 6'2" 245 lbs and I can get in and out on that side but it is with difficulty and if the tractor is powered up my contact with the joy stick runs the FEL wild. It is no big deal and has not constituted a problem in 6+ years. The only problem was when I stupidly tried to get in our out on the WRONG side with the engine running. I did it a couple times and then just quit doing it. Kinda likke hitting your finger with a hammer on purpose, if it hurts, quit doing it.

I have never been inconvenienced more than a few steps to walk around the tractor by not using the WRONG side door. I am much more perturbed by the steps being crunched when you straddle stuff. I took my steps off. It isn't that big of a tractor that I need the steps and there are really handy and strong handles to use to get up and down thoughtfully placed by the Kubota folks.

Pat

 

[dfkrug]

I don't understand how having a custom (NON KUBOTA) sub frame and non-Kubota recommended hoe would not void any warranty.

I'm not a big fan of 3PH hoes but was also ignorant of the one you mentioin by Kubota so I will have to take a look. I don't need a KING KONG hoe and maybe the 3PH model will work for me. At the time I bought my Grand L 4610HSTC I was told point blank that I coiuld not have a Kubota hoe as it clashed with the cab (couldn't be attached much less swivel the seat to operate.

My understanding of Kubota's warranty is that it is voided if you use a
3-point backhoe, unless it is Kubota's 3-pt backhoe (4672 or 4690). The
Kubota hoes with Kubota subframes (BH75, BH90) don't fit the cab
tractors because the subframe interferes with the places where the
cab mounts. The warranty does not make mention of aftermarket
subframe-mounted hoes, as far as I know. In any case, you would
not likely be using your tractor seat; you would be using a separate
hoe seat.

 

[patrick_g]

dfkrug, Thanks again for the info, especially the model numbers. I'll look into that. Maybe my dealer was too emphatic about aftermarket equipment with subframes and the warranty but that is what they told me back then.

Ever deal with a 3PH hoe? How much of a hassle is it to get on and off? Before I built dollies to carry my brush hog and box blade my hitch up time varied from 5 min to an hour depending on luck. With a castor wheeled dolly, hitch up is way easier because I can move the implement to allign it to the tractor and don't have to make as many trips back and forth from the cab to behind thte tractor.

Pat

 

[dfkrug]

dfkrug, Thanks again for the info, especially the model numbers. I'll look into that. Maybe my dealer was too emphatic about aftermarket equipment with subframes and the warranty but that is what they told me back then.

Ever deal with a 3PH hoe? How much of a hassle is it to get on and off? Before I built dollies to carry my brush hog and box blade my hitch up time varied from 5 min to an hour depending on luck. With a castor wheeled dolly, hitch up is way easier because I can move the implement to allign it to the tractor and don't have to make as many trips back and forth from the cab to behind thte tractor.

Pat

Happy to help.

Your dealer probably does not think in terms of a custom subframe, but
he should know about the Kubota 3-pt hoes. It is rather absurd that
Kubota (and JD, NH, Kioti, etc.) sez don't use 3-pt hoes, but then goes
ahead and sells them. Maybe your dealer does not feel comfortable with
you using a 3-pt hoe even if it is a Kubota cuz he will have to fix
your tractor if you break it.

I have installed my Prairie Dog hoes on 3-pts before, and that is why
I don't recommend it. I still use the 3-pt to move the hoes around
cuz it is easy to hook up. If you go that route, and you have
telescoping 3-pt arms, then it is pretty easy. Note that 3-pt hoes
use a special fixed toplink and a triangulating (is that a word?) toplink
brace to keep the hitch from lifting while in use.