Just bought some Biodiesel
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Docsknotinn
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Cowboy, Do you find the Bio Diesel cost effective or do you just use it to support your community. I put a lot of miles on my truck but not as many as you I expect. I understand there are other benefits like improved lubebricity. Dave
cowboydoc
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I use it for the improved performance. I really believe it is a superior product to straight diesel fuel. With the 2% it's the exact same price as regular diesel. I guess if I can use 2% less diesel fuel from OPEC and support farmers in the process then all the better.
CTyler
Veteran Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I use it for the improved performance. )</font>
I thought biodiesel had less BTU's than regular diesel thus less HP output.
I thought biodiesel had less BTU's than regular diesel thus less HP output.
Docsknotinn
Veteran Member
Cowboy, I'm with you all the way on that one pard. I would rather support my neighbors any day ! I need to do some more research to see if any one in SE michigan has it. If any one knows of any place in michigan I drive From Detroit to Mackinaw 3 weekends a month, so I am open to just about any place not too far off I-75 between here and there.
MikePA
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<font color="blue"> From Detroit to Mackinaw 3 weekends a month, so I am open to just about any place not too far off I-75 between here and there. </font>
Dave, here's a link to the BioDiesel retailers in Michigan.
The BioDiesel.org URL contains maps of all Suppliers, Dealers and Retailers in the US.
Dave, here's a link to the BioDiesel retailers in Michigan.
The BioDiesel.org URL contains maps of all Suppliers, Dealers and Retailers in the US.
kensfarm
Veteran Member
That is right.. biodiesal is a less dense fuel.. so it takes more biodiesal fuel than diesal fuel to do the same amount of work. There's some good info in the magazine "Home Power".. one article talks about conversion kits and shows how to run a diesal off of straight veggie oil. The first diesal made was run on peanut oil.. the biggest problem/barrier is.. that those oils are thicker.. and need to be heated up before they hit the injectors. I wouldn't do it to my tractor.. but it seems like a cool project if you had an old diesal generator to play w/.
cowboydoc
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No it isn't right. Wow there is alot of misinformation out there. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Biodiesel burns more completely, biodiesel has a HIGHER cetane rating than regular diesel, and provides superior lubrication and cleaning.
Again you are talking about McDonald's french fry oil which has nothing to do with biodiesel. They are two completely different fuels.
Again you are talking about McDonald's french fry oil which has nothing to do with biodiesel. They are two completely different fuels.
OP
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OK, as far as the better cleaning ability is concerned, do I need to have a spare fuel filter on hand and be prepared to change it out right after using a tank (about 6 gal) of 2% Soy (B2) Biodiesel for the first time? My Boomer has 310 hours on it now running on regular diesel.
cowboydoc
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Now that is a possibility Danny. The biodiesel has increased detergent properties that will dislodge deposits from diesel. This can cause your filter to become plugged. Usually this is just the first tankful as it cleans your fuel system.
Using the 2% I have never had to change the filters other than normal.
Using the 2% I have never had to change the filters other than normal.
kensfarm
Veteran Member
CowboyDoc.. I have to agree & disagree w/ you.. depending on clarifying "biodiesal fuel".. straight biodiesal vs biodiesal/diesal blend.. and yes.. it is and can be made from the same oil that you would use for french fries. I tried below to represent both views.. I'm not a fuel scientist.. so my info comes from what I've read.
Currently biodiesel is produced mainly from field crop oils and used widely in a range of diesel vehicles. The fuel produced in Hawaii by Pacific Biodiesel, Inc. is made totally from recycled cooking oil and used mostly in generators of all sizes, commercial diesel equipment, vehicles, and marine vessels.
Technically, biodiesel is Vegetable Oil Methyl Ester. It is formed by removing the glycerol molecule from vegetable oil in the form of glycerin (soap). Once the glycerin is removed from the oil, the remaining molecules are, to a diesel engine, similar to petroleum diesel fuel. There are some notable differences. The biodiesel molecules are very simple hydrocarbon chains, containing no sulfur, ring molecules or aromatics associated with fossil fuels. Biodiesel is made up of almost 10% oxygen, making it a naturally "oxygenated" fuel.
Three important components that vary the most in diesel fuel are cetane, weight and viscosity.
Cetane defines the susceptibility of the fuel to self-ignite. Acceptable cetane levels are between 40 and 45, but few fuel distributors advertise this since each batch may be different. Cetane influences both starting and combustion roughness on an engine. High altitudes and low temperatures call for a greater cetane number of the fuel.
The weight of the fuel or its gravity plays a role in the heat content of the fuel. Number one is a lighter grade and number two is heavier, or weighs more per gallon. Number one provides better starting in cold temperatures, but number two has better lubricating qualities and contains more heat units (BTUs) per volume.
The number one fuel is less dense so it becomes thinner when heated than the number two fuel. As the fuel temperature continues to rise, fuel begins to leak through the high-pressure parts of the injection pump causing it to pump less fuel, and that leakage results in a power loss of between one percent and seven percent.
The difference is biodiesal is a lighter fuel and has less BTU's per gallon. Less BTUs equals lower mileage and power. A gallon of soy-based biodiesel contains 132,902 BTUs.
The overall picture is fuel quality..
Biodiesel is a safe alternative fuel. Biodiesel has a higher flash point than regular diesel. It is classified as non-flammable by the NFPA, and is not required to carry a Hazardous Material label when being shipped.
Biodiesel is easier on engines. Biodiesel blended as low as a 2% rate with low sulfer or ultra-low sulfer petroleum diesel increases lubricity to traditional high sulfur diesel fuel levels. Field tests indicate that engine life is increased with biodiesel usage.
Biodiesel is "user-friendly." The use of biodiesel and biodiesel blends results in a noticeable change in exhaust odor. The reduction in smell and change of odor are easier on ship workers and pleasure craft boaters. In fact, it's been compared to the smell of French fries. Users also report no eye irritation. Since biodiesel is oxygenated, diesel engines have more complete combustion than when using petroleum fuel.
Currently biodiesel is produced mainly from field crop oils and used widely in a range of diesel vehicles. The fuel produced in Hawaii by Pacific Biodiesel, Inc. is made totally from recycled cooking oil and used mostly in generators of all sizes, commercial diesel equipment, vehicles, and marine vessels.
Technically, biodiesel is Vegetable Oil Methyl Ester. It is formed by removing the glycerol molecule from vegetable oil in the form of glycerin (soap). Once the glycerin is removed from the oil, the remaining molecules are, to a diesel engine, similar to petroleum diesel fuel. There are some notable differences. The biodiesel molecules are very simple hydrocarbon chains, containing no sulfur, ring molecules or aromatics associated with fossil fuels. Biodiesel is made up of almost 10% oxygen, making it a naturally "oxygenated" fuel.
Three important components that vary the most in diesel fuel are cetane, weight and viscosity.
Cetane defines the susceptibility of the fuel to self-ignite. Acceptable cetane levels are between 40 and 45, but few fuel distributors advertise this since each batch may be different. Cetane influences both starting and combustion roughness on an engine. High altitudes and low temperatures call for a greater cetane number of the fuel.
The weight of the fuel or its gravity plays a role in the heat content of the fuel. Number one is a lighter grade and number two is heavier, or weighs more per gallon. Number one provides better starting in cold temperatures, but number two has better lubricating qualities and contains more heat units (BTUs) per volume.
The number one fuel is less dense so it becomes thinner when heated than the number two fuel. As the fuel temperature continues to rise, fuel begins to leak through the high-pressure parts of the injection pump causing it to pump less fuel, and that leakage results in a power loss of between one percent and seven percent.
The difference is biodiesal is a lighter fuel and has less BTU's per gallon. Less BTUs equals lower mileage and power. A gallon of soy-based biodiesel contains 132,902 BTUs.
The overall picture is fuel quality..
Biodiesel is a safe alternative fuel. Biodiesel has a higher flash point than regular diesel. It is classified as non-flammable by the NFPA, and is not required to carry a Hazardous Material label when being shipped.
Biodiesel is easier on engines. Biodiesel blended as low as a 2% rate with low sulfer or ultra-low sulfer petroleum diesel increases lubricity to traditional high sulfur diesel fuel levels. Field tests indicate that engine life is increased with biodiesel usage.
Biodiesel is "user-friendly." The use of biodiesel and biodiesel blends results in a noticeable change in exhaust odor. The reduction in smell and change of odor are easier on ship workers and pleasure craft boaters. In fact, it's been compared to the smell of French fries. Users also report no eye irritation. Since biodiesel is oxygenated, diesel engines have more complete combustion than when using petroleum fuel.
Docsknotinn
Veteran Member
Mike PA, Thanks for the link. I will certainly look into it. On the 2% blend are you buying this from a pump just like regular fuel or do you need to mix it to get the proper mix ?
Mark4510
Gold Member
In reading the fact sheet from Cummins (http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/CUMMINS.PDF) that Mosey pointed us towards, along with the discussions here, it seems to indicated that the risks in using the 2% is very low and clearly worth looking into. If the price is the same and I can help keep some of my fuel $'s here then I am all in favor of it.
CTyler
Veteran Member
The various sites that I have since read say the the BTU output from straight biodiesel is about 8% less than that of petrolium diesel. A higher cetane rating doesn't equal more energy/power/BTU's.
John_Mc
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( This is completely different from that. Biodiesel is made from soybeans specifically for use in diesel engines ONLY. It has no cooking uses at all. What you are talking about is using oil that has already been used for cooking in your vehicle. This requires modifications to the vehicle. The biodiesel requires no modifications to the vehicle. )</font>
Biodiesel can be made from waste veggie oil, just as it can be made from soybean oil. Biodiesel from waste veggie oil requires NO modifications to your engine or fuel system. (Running a diesel on straight veggie oil that has NOT been processed into Biodiesel does require modifications... whether it is soybean oil or waste veggie oil.) If properly made, you can run straight, 100% BD (made from any source of veggie oil) in almost any diesel engine. The only thing to worry about is that if you have been running petro-diesel for a long time, you will have a lot of gunk built up in your fuel tank. The Biodiesel cleans this out... hence the concern mentioned about swapping out the fuel filter (at least until things get cleaned out). 100% BD also has a higher gel point, so may not be appropriate in colder climates. Low concentrations of BD (under 10% or so) have a gel point almost indistingiushable from regular petro-diesel.
John Mc
Biodiesel can be made from waste veggie oil, just as it can be made from soybean oil. Biodiesel from waste veggie oil requires NO modifications to your engine or fuel system. (Running a diesel on straight veggie oil that has NOT been processed into Biodiesel does require modifications... whether it is soybean oil or waste veggie oil.) If properly made, you can run straight, 100% BD (made from any source of veggie oil) in almost any diesel engine. The only thing to worry about is that if you have been running petro-diesel for a long time, you will have a lot of gunk built up in your fuel tank. The Biodiesel cleans this out... hence the concern mentioned about swapping out the fuel filter (at least until things get cleaned out). 100% BD also has a higher gel point, so may not be appropriate in colder climates. Low concentrations of BD (under 10% or so) have a gel point almost indistingiushable from regular petro-diesel.
John Mc
cowboydoc
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Sure it can be made but it's not in any of the plants that I've seen. They only use soybeans for the most part. I mean how much "used vegetable oil" do you think is available to make biodiesel? I'm also not talking about backyard "stills" so to speak. I'm talking about actual plants. It's kind of like the differnce between "moonshine" and a good bottle of my favorite Jack Daniels. Alot of difference in the quality.
dmftoy1
Silver Member
I wish I could remember what the name of the plant is, but there's actually a plant that makes more oil than soybeans and that can be easily grown in the midwest (same equipment) that outproduces soybeans. My brother-inlaw is a corn/soybean genetics professor at SIU and he was "educating" me last time he was up.
Another term that's used to differentiate between bio-diesel and the people who are burning fryer oil is "greasel". The people who are running fryer oil typically refer to it as "greasel" as opposed to bio-diesel which is made from refining various bases into a standard product.
Just my .02
Have a good one,
Dave
Another term that's used to differentiate between bio-diesel and the people who are burning fryer oil is "greasel". The people who are running fryer oil typically refer to it as "greasel" as opposed to bio-diesel which is made from refining various bases into a standard product.
Just my .02
Have a good one,
Dave
kensfarm
Veteran Member
My post must've been too long to read..
"The fuel produced in Hawaii by Pacific Biodiesel, Inc. is made totally from recycled cooking oil and used mostly in generators of all sizes, commercial diesel equipment, vehicles, and marine vessels.
"
"The fuel produced in Hawaii by Pacific Biodiesel, Inc. is made totally from recycled cooking oil and used mostly in generators of all sizes, commercial diesel equipment, vehicles, and marine vessels.
"
Docsknotinn
Veteran Member
Cowboy doc, You got the Beef and The drinks ?? What Time can I be over for a BBQ ??? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
John_Mc
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I wish I could remember what the name of the plant is, but there's actually a plant that makes more oil than soybeans and that can be easily grown in the midwest (same equipment) that outproduces soybeans)</font>
He was probably talking about rapeseed (the same stuff that is used to make canola oil). I can think of only two reasons why this is not now the dominant source of BioDiesel: (1) a lot of farmers are already set up to grow soybeans. It's been one of the best cash crops in the Midwest for quite a while. I'm not sure what, if anything, diferent would be needed for rapeseed, but farmers also understand soybeans well at this point. (2) The Soybean lobby has a hell of a lot of clout.
If it turns out your brother was talking about something other than rapeseed, let me know. I've been following this for a while now, but not as actively as I'd like. (I grew up on a farm in NW Ohio, and I've never quite left it behind, no matter what else I do.)
John Mc
He was probably talking about rapeseed (the same stuff that is used to make canola oil). I can think of only two reasons why this is not now the dominant source of BioDiesel: (1) a lot of farmers are already set up to grow soybeans. It's been one of the best cash crops in the Midwest for quite a while. I'm not sure what, if anything, diferent would be needed for rapeseed, but farmers also understand soybeans well at this point. (2) The Soybean lobby has a hell of a lot of clout.
If it turns out your brother was talking about something other than rapeseed, let me know. I've been following this for a while now, but not as actively as I'd like. (I grew up on a farm in NW Ohio, and I've never quite left it behind, no matter what else I do.)
John Mc
