Jinma 204 - Problems getting it started
greg_g
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I read somewhere on this site that the 1381 was for a gas engine and the 1626 was better suited for diesel. The 1626 is a bit bigger. Which I kinda like.
BTW. I use both WIX and NAPA. WIX makes filters for NAPA. I work for Dana who owns WIX filters and I used to work for NAPA. So, I can vouch for them both. Best filters on the market.)</font>
You read backwards. Check the application chart and you'll see ALL gasoline apps for one, some diesel for the other. Has something to do with the bypass valve. But it's academic if the 2 cyl uses diff filters than the 3 cyl.
Yes, WIX makes filters for NAPA - but to a lower standard than the ones they put their own name on. Despite the same pedigree, I'd use a WIX any day over a NAPA
//greg//
BTW. I use both WIX and NAPA. WIX makes filters for NAPA. I work for Dana who owns WIX filters and I used to work for NAPA. So, I can vouch for them both. Best filters on the market.)</font>
You read backwards. Check the application chart and you'll see ALL gasoline apps for one, some diesel for the other. Has something to do with the bypass valve. But it's academic if the 2 cyl uses diff filters than the 3 cyl.
Yes, WIX makes filters for NAPA - but to a lower standard than the ones they put their own name on. Despite the same pedigree, I'd use a WIX any day over a NAPA
//greg//
greg_g
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Yeah, I watch the ammeter and they are working. )</font>
I can be a bit hard headed at times, so bear with me. You got it running once - and it died. You subsequently confirmed fuel to one cylinder. So - IF THE GLOW PLUGS WORK - you should be able to get it started on at least one cylinder.
That said, hopefully that partial disassembly didn't throw a wrench in the works.
//greg//
I can be a bit hard headed at times, so bear with me. You got it running once - and it died. You subsequently confirmed fuel to one cylinder. So - IF THE GLOW PLUGS WORK - you should be able to get it started on at least one cylinder.
That said, hopefully that partial disassembly didn't throw a wrench in the works.
//greg//
greg_g
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Well I know starting fluid is discouraged, but maybe you're trying to explode water. I've bit the bullet and used starting fluid in a few extreme cases. There's always some around, but for the most part I only use it to clean chain saws. But every once in a while it comes in handy to start a balky diesel.
I've avoided engine damage (first) by using it only when all else fails, and (second) spraying it very conservatively. I remove the air intake hose at the intake manifold, but I don't spray the starting fluid INTO the intake itself. With the hand throttle advanced at least half way, I turn the ignition with one hand and spray in the vicinity of the intake with the other. The natural aspiration of the intake stroke is usually enough to draw in a small amount of aerosol. Doesn't run long though, I have to apply a short spray when it threatens to die. But eventually the natural revolution of the engine finishes priming the fuel system, and pretty soon it's running on diesel fuel instead of starting fluid.
And if that doesn't do it, I'll back out gracefully and let you return to troubleshooting the injection system.
//greg//
I've avoided engine damage (first) by using it only when all else fails, and (second) spraying it very conservatively. I remove the air intake hose at the intake manifold, but I don't spray the starting fluid INTO the intake itself. With the hand throttle advanced at least half way, I turn the ignition with one hand and spray in the vicinity of the intake with the other. The natural aspiration of the intake stroke is usually enough to draw in a small amount of aerosol. Doesn't run long though, I have to apply a short spray when it threatens to die. But eventually the natural revolution of the engine finishes priming the fuel system, and pretty soon it's running on diesel fuel instead of starting fluid.
And if that doesn't do it, I'll back out gracefully and let you return to troubleshooting the injection system.
//greg//
greg_g
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I believe those stories were likely about gasoline powered tractors
//greg//
//greg//
Yeah, thought so.
Greg_g, since I last posted, I've loosened the lines and pumped fuel all way up to the injectors by loosening the male couplings on top of the injection pump. Retightened the fittings and tractor still doesn't start. What's the chance there is an air bubble in the injection pump. It just doesn't make sense. I get fuel to and out of the pump and when I tighten everything back up, it looses it's prime. I'm at a loss.
Greg_g, since I last posted, I've loosened the lines and pumped fuel all way up to the injectors by loosening the male couplings on top of the injection pump. Retightened the fittings and tractor still doesn't start. What's the chance there is an air bubble in the injection pump. It just doesn't make sense. I get fuel to and out of the pump and when I tighten everything back up, it looses it's prime. I'm at a loss.
greg_g
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I've taken out glow plugs, but never had cause to take out injectors on any of my five diesels yet (knock on wood). I know the new KAMA came with a lot of algae in the fuel tank. I didn't realize it till the sediment bowl was half full, but fortunately it didn't work its way any farther. Do you reckon you could have a pair of clogged injectors?
I had a mechanically injected Alfa Romeo (gasoline) that didn't tolerate the dirty Italian fuel very well. Injectors got clogged regularly. I cleaned them on the car, by spraying starting fluid into each tuned intake tube - one cylinder at a time. The violence of the explosions was enough to blast the crud off the injector tips for another few thousand miles.
//greg//
I had a mechanically injected Alfa Romeo (gasoline) that didn't tolerate the dirty Italian fuel very well. Injectors got clogged regularly. I cleaned them on the car, by spraying starting fluid into each tuned intake tube - one cylinder at a time. The violence of the explosions was enough to blast the crud off the injector tips for another few thousand miles.
//greg//
SPIKER
Elite Member
One thing, Have you checked to make sure the FUEL cut off lever is not STUCK in the OFF postion? some come with cable that can get stuck, and mine has solid linkage, which can bind up if something is pulled overcenter ? just a thought, next thing to check it the lines loose and crank to see if INJUECTOR PUMP is spitting fuel, loosen same as before, the spring & needle I htink is to prevent the fuel form dripping back when off. but the injectorpump should push this off easy. if the injectorpump does not PUMP fuel (splat) out of the loose lines above it, then you maybe have a loose drive gear for the pump or a bad pump, this is easy step to check if it doesn't splat it out pretty good then the cutoff or pump drive or pump has some problems. you have eliminated the screens & lines so time to check the injector pump 7 drive mech, with cranking fuel out the line to injectors fittings. and if it does spit out there then the injectors are clogged. like i stated make sure that the fuel cut off level is hooked up right * not jammed ot OFF setting which is back twards the driver on the 3 cylinder not sure on 2 cyl.
Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Mark M
Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Mark M
greg_g
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You get that 204 to start yet John?
//greg//
//greg//
No, Greg. Going to work on it again today if it doesn't rain. I have had a series of bad luck lately. Wife's tranny went out of the car and broke the timing cover on the daughter's car putting a timing chain in it. Look's like I'll be wrenching overtime in the next week or so.
Contacted a local diesel mechanic and he stated that the manual primer is only to prime the injection pump, not the injectors. He suggested pulling it in high gear until it starts. Says, it takes over 2000 psi pressure to pop the injectors and the starter can't spin the engine long or fast enough. What do you think?
John
Contacted a local diesel mechanic and he stated that the manual primer is only to prime the injection pump, not the injectors. He suggested pulling it in high gear until it starts. Says, it takes over 2000 psi pressure to pop the injectors and the starter can't spin the engine long or fast enough. What do you think?
John
SPIKER
Elite Member
greg:
did you loosen the D-Rings on the side of the injector pump? those are 1 turn type fittings similar to the ones on car break bleeder screws only uses the D-Ring to loosen & tighten it. one thing I forgot to say, but that is in the bleeder posts on JohnS's web site. I never did get any fuel out of the injector lines but they were full when needed. you can try the pull start option for sure it would save some on the starter & battery. just make sure you have enough chain/rope so it doesn't run into the pull vehical.
let out clutch slowly in gear and the thing should turn over and pop off.
Mark M
did you loosen the D-Rings on the side of the injector pump? those are 1 turn type fittings similar to the ones on car break bleeder screws only uses the D-Ring to loosen & tighten it. one thing I forgot to say, but that is in the bleeder posts on JohnS's web site. I never did get any fuel out of the injector lines but they were full when needed. you can try the pull start option for sure it would save some on the starter & battery. just make sure you have enough chain/rope so it doesn't run into the pull vehical.
let out clutch slowly in gear and the thing should turn over and pop off.
Mark M
Spiker, I don't see any d-rings. I assume you are talking about the 2 screws directly below the 2 ouput lines on top of the pump? If so, yes. I have bled them several times. If I crack them about 1/4 to 1/2 turn, fuel flows.
It's been sitting for about a week or so since I've been working on more important projects (that's what wife says). I got on and heated the glow plugs and then hit the starter. I get whitish-gray smoke and it picks up rpm like it wants to start but won't. I think pulling about 15 mph might do the trick. I worry about steering though, since it's hydraulic.
It's been sitting for about a week or so since I've been working on more important projects (that's what wife says). I got on and heated the glow plugs and then hit the starter. I get whitish-gray smoke and it picks up rpm like it wants to start but won't. I think pulling about 15 mph might do the trick. I worry about steering though, since it's hydraulic.
greg_g
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Contacted a local diesel mechanic and he stated that the manual primer is only to prime the injection pump, not the injectors. He suggested pulling it in high gear until it starts. Says, it takes over 2000 psi pressure to pop the injectors and the starter can't spin the engine long or fast enough. What do you think?)</font>
I think your local mechanic is unfamiliar with Jinmas. We're talking diesel technology that's at least 50 years old here. Using the hand primer to get fuel as far as the injectors is all it's designed to do. You then spin the starter up to speed with the compression release OPEN. Once CLOSED, the "2000 psi pressure" he described - is there, by design. But if the injectors are fouled, no amount of spinning - no amount of towing - is going to get fuel INTO the combustion chambers.
Thus my recommendation for careful troubleshooting with a can of starting fluid. Yes, there are recommendations against the use of starting fluid. But they are for the most part liability statements to protect manufacturers and dealers from the careless owner. There are positive aspects to the use of starting fluid as well. During the process of starting/running ON starting fluid, the violent detonations often clear fouled injector tips. If it starts and runs on starting fluid, you've pretty much eliminated valve timing/adjustment and compression release problems. There's no need to keep the engine running on starting fluid for more than 60 seconds or so. If it doesn't run on it's own by then, you've likely narrowed it down some, and can start looking with more confidence at fuel delivery, pre-combustion, pump timing, compression-related problem, et cetera.
//greg//
I think your local mechanic is unfamiliar with Jinmas. We're talking diesel technology that's at least 50 years old here. Using the hand primer to get fuel as far as the injectors is all it's designed to do. You then spin the starter up to speed with the compression release OPEN. Once CLOSED, the "2000 psi pressure" he described - is there, by design. But if the injectors are fouled, no amount of spinning - no amount of towing - is going to get fuel INTO the combustion chambers.
Thus my recommendation for careful troubleshooting with a can of starting fluid. Yes, there are recommendations against the use of starting fluid. But they are for the most part liability statements to protect manufacturers and dealers from the careless owner. There are positive aspects to the use of starting fluid as well. During the process of starting/running ON starting fluid, the violent detonations often clear fouled injector tips. If it starts and runs on starting fluid, you've pretty much eliminated valve timing/adjustment and compression release problems. There's no need to keep the engine running on starting fluid for more than 60 seconds or so. If it doesn't run on it's own by then, you've likely narrowed it down some, and can start looking with more confidence at fuel delivery, pre-combustion, pump timing, compression-related problem, et cetera.
//greg//
bruce1966us
Platinum Member
I think I would kick it into a high gear and give it a shot. If it does not start you are back where you left off.
Thanks,
Bruce
Thanks,
Bruce
Greg, I started it on starting fluid last night and kept it running for about 2 minutes by continually squirting it in the air intake hose. The tractor never did catch and run on it's own. I am thinking now that I need to remove and check the injectors for blockage. The injectors are the only thing I haven't removed and cleaned. I am also going to once again remove and clean each and every line and fitting. That way, I'll be sure there are no problems in the fuel delivery system anywhere. If that doesn't do it, I'll know I have a pump / injector problem. I am not going to pull it at this time because I don't think it will start if I pull it 10 miles.
I'll let you know what happens.
John
I'll let you know what happens.
John
SPIKER
Elite Member
White JA:
Keep up the good work I'm sure we will get it running sooner or later. after the injector R clean & R I would pull timeing / gear cover from the front of the injector pump to make sure it is connected correctly and in time, yes the injector pump has to be inb-time WITH the engine/valve train. as fuel is injected just prior to the piston TDC. What condition was the OIL in the injector pump? have you drained it and re-filled it with new clean oil to the proper level.? remember there are 2 drainn ports on the injector. oil level in there should be up to the small drain/bleed screw and not over, don't think a bit over makes much differance due to the recp ball pumps design. but as long as there is a good level it should WORK and of corse that the drive gear is still ON and not have a sheared KEY. this has fallen off in the past with NEW tractors that were brand new too, as the guy at factory didn't tighten the nut that holds them on. there was an OLD post aobut this way back on CTOA site prior to it going to a PAY site. I belive JohnS has some of that info posted but not 100%. though I think some one maybe has a copy of that post?
MarkM /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Keep up the good work I'm sure we will get it running sooner or later. after the injector R clean & R I would pull timeing / gear cover from the front of the injector pump to make sure it is connected correctly and in time, yes the injector pump has to be inb-time WITH the engine/valve train. as fuel is injected just prior to the piston TDC. What condition was the OIL in the injector pump? have you drained it and re-filled it with new clean oil to the proper level.? remember there are 2 drainn ports on the injector. oil level in there should be up to the small drain/bleed screw and not over, don't think a bit over makes much differance due to the recp ball pumps design. but as long as there is a good level it should WORK and of corse that the drive gear is still ON and not have a sheared KEY. this has fallen off in the past with NEW tractors that were brand new too, as the guy at factory didn't tighten the nut that holds them on. there was an OLD post aobut this way back on CTOA site prior to it going to a PAY site. I belive JohnS has some of that info posted but not 100%. though I think some one maybe has a copy of that post?
MarkM /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Spiker, I drained and replaced the oil in the injection pump with Rotella 15w40. I filled it until it ran out of the lower bolt hole. And I did drain both drain holes. I think you may have something on the input shaft of the pump. Haven't checked that yet. Will let you know.
Thanks to all for your help. I can't wait to get this little tractor running!
Thanks to all for your help. I can't wait to get this little tractor running!
