Is Kioti Viable for the Long Term??

viking65 · May 13, 2005

Vince:

I don't want a big 3 tractor today. I'm glad the Kioti tractor is a viable option for you. I hope you love your tractor, Kioti makes a good product. In some parts of the country I'm sure the difference in price is more or less than the $2000 I used. Still, even if the difference is double, $4000, over the long term that's still not a lot of money any way you spin it.

Not directed specifically to Vince:

I never said that the big 3 tractor is better made than a second tier tractor. I just wanted to discuss the viability of Kioti for the long term. You can lump any of the other second tier competitors in with Kioti as far as their success in the long term as well (Mahindra, branson, Zetor, Montana...etc) they are all facing the same problems. Not all of them will survive.

Kioti is just as likely as Mahindra to fail or Branson, Montana or whoever. They all make good tractors, they all are facing bad dealer problems, parts availability issues, corporate support issues, dealer network weaknesses.

There is a premium to be paid for longevity, strong dealers, strong dealer support, excellent parts availability, complete dealer network, and the likelihood that the company and your dealer will be around in the foreseeable future to support their product and their customers. None of the second tier builders can offer this so they cannot expect to charge the prices that a big 3 manufacturer charges although some try to and they typically lose a sale.

I'm not picking on Kioti or any other manufacturer but there does seem to be some thin skinned Kioti owners that cannot just talk about Kioti as a business. This thread is not a personal attack on your favorite tractor comapny. I hope Kioti survives, but it won't be easy for them or the others like them.

DK35vince · May 13, 2005

( In some parts of the country I'm sure the difference in price is more or less than the $2000 I used. Still, even if the difference is double, $4000, over the long term that's still not a lot of money any way you spin it.
)

$4,000 differance. You better keep going. The price differances in my area where higher than that. (Thats a lot of money in my book no matter how you slice it !!)
By the way, I don't have a dealer problem ( I like my dealer)!
I've never had a parts problem !
What corporate support issues /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I own a 2001 Kioti DK 35 with 516 hours . I have yet to have any of the issues you listed..

RedRocker · May 13, 2005

I guess another selling point for me was the fact that all CUT's are foreign made, some have old standby American names, but American in name only.

Donnyj · May 13, 2005

I did a search of dealers within 100 miles of my zip code. These are the results
46 John Deere
11 Kioti
7 Farmtrac
6 Montana and Mahindra
5 New Holland
3 Kubota
2 Branson
I hope Kioti is improving there dealerships. Looks like to me at least in my area that Kioti has a strong and growing network. I do believe they have very strong corporate support. My experience with the Kioti company has been positive. My dealer was another story.

albmn10 · May 13, 2005

Viking, maybe your missing the point here... Your in a room where everyone has done their homework in choosing a tractor...Just turned out to be Kioti..The ingredients for success are being able to adapt in a competitive market while continuing to make a quality product while keeping overhead to a minimum.Kioti has shown a continuing effort to improve there tractors and listen to the concerns of their customers.I have a CK30 and find it impressive, no thin skin here.. As others have mentioned, all the tractors today contain foreign parts, the Japanese and Koreans both make excellent diesel engines. A few years ago everyone laughed that the little Korean Hyundai cars and thought they were a fly by night compared to the big 3 US automakers ... Now several of their vehicles are rated number 1 by consumer reports for reliability,and that their quality is on par with the Japanese. It just so happens that 2 of the 3 big auto makers have seen their bond ratings fall to junk status,any company is vunerable.. Im sure someone like you said the same thing about hyundi. It seems like the South Koreans have a pretty good work ethic.. As far as your argument using the John Deere as only a few cents more a day over a 20 year period. Where i live the John Deere 3020 series tractors go for 21000+ here in NY while the Ck 30 prices at just under 16000. 5000 is a lot of money to pay for a name.Id put My Ck30 up against any make out there for performance and quality at 30hp and under. As i also said, all my local John Deere dealers have a arrogant attitude, thats what gets a company in trouble...

To20Chris · May 14, 2005

"Dead Money" is an irrelevant issue. You're saying that if I don't invest the money I save it has no value? How about if I buy a bigger, more capable tractor for the same money, or if I buy implements to make my purchase more useful? In my case, I got far more capability for my $ from Kioti than I could ever have gotten from the Kubotas I was looking at. Some folks like to spend their money by giving it to a tractor mfr in the hope that it will "buy up" their future resale value (which is a risk & not guaranteed), but I'd rather get a more effective machine for the purposes that I bought the tractor for in the first place.

As far as what companies will be viable in 20yrs, it isn’t predictable. I believe the fuel to manufacture, ship, and run our tractors will be way too expensive by then. Which of the Asian companies that make all of these tractors will be in the best shape then? It probably depends mainly on who comes out in the best position in the present maneuverings & wars to control the remaining oil. Then you have to wonder if all the low wage service-economy jobs in the US will generate enough of a market to attract the ones that are left to here, given the increased costs of manufacture and shipping. Don’t forget that some of these companies have much bigger sales in other markets. Japan has no resources of their own, so the success of their companies depends on who they ally themselves with, and who wins. China would be a better bet. It’s likely that most of these tractors we have will become lawn ornaments long before they wear out, but if there is enough of a market then someone will make the parts.

There - now I need to go adjust my tinfoil hat.

Dargo · May 14, 2005

( A few years ago everyone laughed that the little Korean Hyundai cars and thought they were a fly by night compared to the big 3 US automakers ... Now several of their vehicles are rated number 1 by consumer reports for reliability,and that their quality is on par with the Japanese.)

Very true. I work in and around the auto business. I don't know what the deal with Daewoo was, but Hyundai and Kia are no longer considered "the new Yugo". Not at all. Both companies are producing vehicles that compete quite well in the world (including US) markets. I don't see why the tractor market will be much different. I think Kioti could very well be on the exact same track as Hyundai and Kia.

I don't have any doubt that some of the "new" tractor brands will fade to black though. I won't name names (it would just be my speculation anyway), but some of these "bargain brands" that are riding the coat tails of serious companies are undoubtedly grabbing what they can now, and will just fold up their tent and disappear when things get a little tough. As someone else mentioned, do your homework. I think the "wanna be" companies will be obvious. There again, I've been wrong before. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MessickFarmEqu · May 14, 2005

( I did a search of dealers within 100 miles of my zip code. These are the results
46 John Deere
11 Kioti
7 Farmtrac
6 Montana and Mahindra
5 New Holland
3 Kubota
2 Branson
I hope Kioti is improving there dealerships. Looks like to me at least in my area that Kioti has a strong and growing network. I do believe they have very strong corporate support. My experience with the Kioti company has been positive. My dealer was another story. )

Some of those engines limit the number of results to keep you from calling every dealer on the east cost for pricing. IE.. there are at least 20-30 Kubota dealers and 10-20 New Holland. I am in SE PA and you can go to about 10 different places within 20 miles of me.

Donnyj · May 14, 2005

I always thought that you could not have the same brand within 50 miles of each other. At least that is what a Kioti dealer told me. 20 to 30 Kubota dealers within 100 mile radius sounds a little crowded. I know of only 3 Kubota dealers where I live. I guess the point was that Kioti dealers in my area are not scarce. Hopefully they will grow and be more available nationwide.

MessickFarmEqu · May 15, 2005

Oh yea, our Kubota reps will admit that at first they where too willing to hand out dealerships and some area's are over croweded. I can drive to 2 other dealers within about 20 minutes of our store, at least 6-7 within an hour. It does make it nice for interdealer transfers, but the competition is insane. Right now BX TLM packages are selling $400 below last years price even before the steal increases. There are about 1050 dealers in the US.

Dargo · May 15, 2005

I know it makes it bad for the Kubota dealers, but Kubota was actually less expensive than Kioti for me with the competition Kubota dealers have. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif And, with resale values the way they are, it made Kioti not an option for me at this time.

KiotiJohn · May 15, 2005

( I know it makes it bad for the Kubota dealers, but Kubota was actually less expensive than Kioti for me with the competition Kubota dealers have. And, with resale values the way they are, it made Kioti not an option for me at this time. )
Don't think that we regulars have forgotten that you've done nothing but complain about your Kubota's problems and that the dealer still hasn't repaired it to your satisfaction. If the Kioti was more expensive, I'll have to see that in writing, while I continue to use mine with no problems.
More detail will follow in a PM.
John

shoppintractors · May 15, 2005

Don't think that we regulars have forgotten that you've done nothing but complain about your Kubota's problems and that the dealer still hasn't repaired it to your satisfaction.

Well John, now you've let the 'cat out of the bag' /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.......Dargo's Big 3 tractor manufacturer?? Maybe viking69 will step forward and become Dargo's "consumer advocate". /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Messick's wrote:
Right now (Kubota) BX TLM packages are selling $400 below last years price even before the steal increases. 

WOW! That's great to know for resale. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Don

viking65 · May 15, 2005

Don, you have missed the point from the beginning. I understand that is par for the course for you.

I have not been an advocate for any brand. I only wanted to talk out some of the second tier tractor companies and their long term probability of success and the cost, in the long term, of a big 3 tractor compared to a second tier tractor. That cannot be done in this setting. Unless someone praises or asks a question, in only a positive tone, regarding Kioti then the ultra sensitivity of some Kioti owners comes to the surface very quickly. Maybe there is a little insecurity with some of the Kioti owners in this forum.

I really hope Kioti does succeed. It's good for Kioti owners, dealers and employees. Same for the other brands. But they all won't make it, Kioti included. The market will decide. It's just more of a risk to buy a Kioti than to spend a bit more and buy a NH/JD/Kub. Will Kioti be around? How bad is resale value? Will my dealer be in business next year? Can I get parts in 5 to 10 years?

I took on more risk when I bought a Cub Cadet sub-compact. I could have bought the JD or Kubota equivalent but I liked the Cub better just as you like what you saw in the Kioti more than the JD/NH or Kubota. I don't know how long Cub Cadet will continue to support my tractor. I could be in the same boat a you. Only time will tell.

KiotiJohn · May 15, 2005

( I only wanted to talk out some of the second tier tractor companies and their long term probability of success and the cost, in the long term, of a big 3 tractor compared to a second tier tractor. )
If this were your only motive, you would have posted a thread in the general buying/pricing/comparisons forum and the title of the thread would be something like: "Are 2nd tier tractors viable for the long term," not is Kioti... Kioti is not more than one second tier tractor, so your assertion that you "wanted to talk out some of the second tier tractor companies falls flat on it's face.
Add that to some of the other comments you've made regarding Kioti, and believe me, we can smell the trolling going on.
If you never had any intentions of trying to make Kioti out to be a risk, then you would have done it the way I said.
Thinned skinned, I don't think so, but if so, so be it. Fair is fair, and your tactics are not.
John

shoppintractors · May 15, 2005

Don, you have missed the point from the beginning. I understand that is par for the course for you.


Well MrViking, your not the first who's taken a shot at me and I'm sure you won't be the last.

You came into this thread with your own forgone conclusions and expressed them as fact. I don't see where you were looking for any discussion.

I'm sure the Kioti owners can see right through your charade. There a pretty knowledgeable group....and helpful beyond belief if you come in with the right attitude.

Since this thread seems to have reached the end of it's useful life, I'll request a moderator to close it down.

Have a good day. I hope you find a tractor you can be satisfied with.

Don

getut · May 15, 2005

viking... again you are talking to people that made their decision to go with Kioti. You are going to hear good things from most of us and most of us speak the truth as we see it. I don't agree with overhyping a brand and no offense Kioti John, I have seen you hyping Kioti even when it was not on the question list. But also in John's defense, I have seen him recommend NOT to go with MMM's in certain scenarios since they are known to have problems. So... I think for the most part you are getting truly what people believe here.

Kioti's are great, not perfect, but great. What more can you ask for in a review?

KiotiJohn · May 15, 2005

( I don't agree with overhyping a brand and no offense Kioti John, I have seen you hyping Kioti even when it was not on the question list. )
Yes, sometimes I do that because it's obvious that some people aren't even aware that they exist. If they're asking about specific tractors, I make comments on those, usually not bad things either, and suggest they look at Kioti, Mahindra, Branson and others as well. No offense taken, but lets have the real background behind why I do it. Don't forget, most of those people have never owned a tractor and don't know what's out there.
I have often recommended other brands when it has been appropriate, but I'm sure going to mention that a Kioti is out there and may suit their needs as well.
John
John

Donnyj · May 15, 2005

I never heard of Kioti until I came across this website. I figured I was going to have to "settle" for something else. Reading these posts got my curiosity up. So I went and looked. Then I bought. The product sold me. I like the other 2 brands I looked at {Kubota and NH}. Just felt like I was getting more for my money with Kioti. Really was impressed with the support from the Kioti company. Also impressed with the help and advice I received from some people on this website.

Dargo · May 15, 2005

Cool KJ, nice PM. Unfortunately, I'm not like you. If something doesn't work, regardless of the brand, I'm not going to sugar coat it and say that that brand is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I really don't need to point this out either. If people have read your posts, regardless of the problem with anything Kioti, it is always the dealer or operator error.

It's fine that you want to cast stones at me for saying that I'll buy Kubota when it is less expensive than Kioti. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Your screen name says it all. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif