Indoor arena footing

[weedsportpete]

Any suggestions out there for footing material for an indoor riding arena?

We've got mostly glacial clay, really hard stuff that turns to concrete after a rain. The sub-base of the arena is compacted glacial clay. I'm thinking of putting in crush run gravel as the base, and I have no idea of what to put on top of that or how thick it should be.

I've read alot about soils - particle size, compaction, drainage, etc., but there are no specific recommendations anywhere..

I'm thinking about mixing topsoil and sand as the footing. We looked at crumb rubber, but its a little out of our price range, and we are not sure if you can hold reining competitions on it. We have a lot of topsoil to work with.

We also have a space for an outdoor arena that is already compacted and settled, and I'm thinking of putting the same stuff there. I've also seen screened gravel mentioned.. would that be for the base or the footing?

tia
Pete

ps Is there a horse/equine site out there as good as this site is for tractors??

 

[MikePA]

Hi Pete!

Is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.perma-flex1.com>this</A> the stuff you referred to as being out of your price range?

 

[cowboydoc]

Weedsport,
There isn't a site out there like this for horses, arenas, etc. I have been trying for a number of years to get something going but just don't have the time or knowledge of the computers to do it.

Back to your question for your indoor you do not need to use any kind of a drainage unless you get water in your barn. You will be watering the arena everyday just to keep down dust. If you want to go the most cost effective way you would use a sight and level all your ground down 4" from grade and compact the heck out of it. Then I would bring in arena sand. Don't use river sand, etc. They have a special grade for arenas. It's a little more but it's worth it. Spread this and level it and you will a nice arena for reining. The most important part is getting the base right. Then you will need to buy an arena groomer to keep the arena worked up nice and extend the life of your sand.

Your outdoor arena is a different story. You need to have drainage and the best way for this is to first build up your arena so it has a natural drain to it. Then I would tile it, then compact, and then add your sand to it after that. The problem with the crushed rock is that it settles to much and doesn't provide a firm base, esp. for stopping reining horses. You want to get your drain primarily from the firm base and having the base sloped so that it drains. Then the tiling will take care of the rest. This way your base won't get saturated and you develop holes in it which is bad for reining.

 

[gerard]

Well Pete you came to the same conclusion we did - the rubber I think would be optimum - less dust, good cushion and will last forever - downside was the cost was a bit much. As far as your base I wouldn't use running crush. Get some screened clay, level it and compact it well. Then put whatever footing you decide to use on top of that. reining is pretty tough on footing and if you use running crush you'll wind up getting to the base at times and the stone will then wind up mixing with your footing which you definitely DON'T want. The clay is in the area (We used Action Topsoil in Minoa) as is the sand cowboy doc mentioned which we used for our outdoor. The sand is kind of black in color. I THINK it was concrete sand. Bigger particle size and doesn't breakdown as much. For our indoor we went with material called fibar. It's wood chips treated to inhibit the wood from breaking down. Our neighbor went with this too and he does reining. Not as good as rubber but a little less dusty than sand.

 

[patrickg]

Can you mix in a hygroscopic mineral/chemical like CaCl to attract moisture and help keep the dust down?

Patrick

 

[cowboydoc]

Yes you can and alot of people do. I have sprinklers hooked up in my arenas so I just turn them on before I go ride to wet it down. I don't do it because I will feed the animals on the arena in the winter at times.

 

[weedsportpete]

Yup.. thats the stuff.. I've looked at Surefoot, Equi-Tred and Permaflex; I've also found a more 'wholesale' supplier (Acorn Processing in Albany, NY) who had the best prices (and delivery) (518-438-2716 Steve McKiernan). It was a lot closer to what we could afford, but still just a little too much money. Maybe next year, after taxes. Pretty much everyone we talked to recommended mixing the rubber with sand, close to one to one mixture, or a little more sand than rubber.

 

[weedsportpete]

Its too bad you can't run a equine site like this.. I know you could add a lot of value to it. All the sites I've seen so far are a little more primitive (now that I'm used to the way these discussion/postings look and work, with all the questions and answers on the same page, I really can't stand those sites that only have the hyperlink/hyperlink/hyperlink/hyperlink setup).

But anyway, so are you saying for the indoor arena to just have the compacted glacial clay as both sub-base and base? and cover that with arena sand? Nothing in the middle? That would save money. I'd have to be careful how I raked it, so I don't rake up the base. Somebody told me I could just use chain link fence with a bar across the top and bottom as a harrow for the outdoor arena; maybe that would be fine for the indoor arena also.

The indoor arena is built on a pad that extends out 12 feet on each side; the excavator is coming back to smooth out the pad and slope it away from the walls (and on one problem side he is putting in a swale (sp?), which gradually slopes down to the far end. The far end will have a real drain that drains out on the other (naturally slopped side). So as long as I keep up with the snow, nothing will drain under the walls.

I'm not sure about the slope of the outdoor arena.. I'll have to look. When you say tile it, you mean put drain tile around the outside? Or all across the arena? Then cover the tile with crushed graval and compact the gravel? And make sure that the base (compacted base) is sloped to drain to the sides.

Then use same arena sand as in the indoor arena?

 

[weedsportpete]

So the reason you don't recommend running crush is because it could mix upwards and get into the footing? Screened clay will compact down into something different than the glacial clay I've got now? Then the arena sand or concrete sand is preferred because it has a larger particle size?

I just saw something on that wood fiber material yesterday.. I'm assuming its cheaper than rubber.. you have to keep it damp but not so wet that it breaks down (biologically - mold, whatever)?

Also, when you say compact it well, do you mean bringing in heavy duty steam rollers, and not the rollers you can rent at National or Taylor Rental? I've got my little Kubota 2200.. not sure how much roller it can pull..

 

[weedsportpete]

Did the sprinklers cost a lot? I guess I'll be watering to keep the dust down. I've got a little pond (20' across) that I could use as the water source. Do you have overhead sprinklers? I saw an add for a sprinkler that you pull out to the far end of an arena, and when you turn it on, it slowly pulls itself back to the other end of the arena (as it sprays). Can watering sprinklers also be used (permitted) as fire sprinklers? I have no idea of the cost of sprinklers.

What I'd really like to do is put in more water lines in the barn. We're pulling hoses around to get to all the stalls; I'd like to get water lines run to more accessible places, maybe to each stall. Or maybe get one of those swivel pipes you see in do-it-yourself car washes.

I'm trying to set up the place so its easy to maintain and work when we are older. There are no kids around the place, and we are so small, I'm not sure we will have hired help. Anything we can do to avoid lifting hay bales and water is good.

 

[cowboydoc]

Pete,
Yes you can just use the clay for your base. There's really no reason to have the drain in the indoor.
Everyone worries about the top of the arena but it's your base that is important, esp. with reining. You've got to have a smooth hard base for them to slide on. If you are seriously into reining and maintaining your hard work on your arenas invest in one of the arena groomers. You won't do squat with a chainlink fence. Plus they will allow to control the depth so that you don't tear up your base.

If the excavator is coming back you need to get it dug out 4" below where you want your grade for your arena to be and it has to be absolutely perfectly level. That will give you a good arena for years to come with minimal maintenance.

As far as your outdoor arena it depends on your rainfall. Back home in Idaho we never worried about drainage as we don't get hardly any rain. In the midwest it's a constant battle with rain. My arenas are all tiled with the slope of the ground. You have to get the water drained from the middle as well as the outside. For the outdoor I would crown the middle and slope it sideways very gently. As long as you you compact the base very solid then you shouldn't have a problem. The tile will drain what leaches through the ground and the slope will take away the majority of the water.

I would rent a compactor if you want to do it right. YOu can get a heavy roller but you will have to compact it, wet it down, compact, wet it down, etc. I would use the same sand in the inside as well as the outside.

It definitely would be great to mix the rubber with the sand but most arenas are sand, even the big boys don't use rubber much.

 

[cowboydoc]

If you are going to mix the crush you will need to put it down then put 6" of clay down and then 4" of sand. You can't have crushed for your base, not if you are going to be doing any stopping at all. If you really want to go all out the way to do it is dig down 14" from grade. Then you put 4" of crushed rock and tile it, then you put in 6" of clay and compact the heck out of it, and then put in your 3-4" of sand. Now some guys will only put down 2" of sand on their base because they want their horses to slide really far. Most guys though put down 3-4" because they want their horses to learn to slide in deeper sand because that's what most arenas are. Plus if they can slide good in heavy sand you will slide farther in lighter sand.

The wood material is fine but you do have to replace it faster than sand. I wouldn't mess with it. If I was going to do anything besides sand I'd do the rubber.

 

[gerard]

Not sure if cowboy doc is saying to use JUST clay for the footing. If so (if that's what you need for reining) I would agree with the groomer use as you would need something to dig up the clay and loosen it and a fence won't do that. IF you are going to put down clay and top with a looser footing on top (sand, rubber, fibar etc), then you want the base compacted and do NOT want to dig it up. In that case a fence drag works fine and smooths things well. My wife does dressage so you want a little looser footing than for reining. Re watering - I'd love to have a sprinkler set up but can't pull that kind of water from my well. If you have a pond that would be great. I use a 325 gal tank in my pickup and I rigged a 7 foot wide pvc drip bar off the tailgate. Just crack the valve and drive back and forth. Dumps the whole thing in about 10 minutes. (We have a spring down the road where I fill it up in about 6 minutes which was why I got the tank). Re compaction - we just had the dozer that spread the clay go over it and then rode the horses on it for a few weeks before putting down the fibar. Not as good as a dedicated machine but it worked pretty well and cost nothing extra! Horses will compact things quite a bit, evene when you don't want them to!

 

[cowboydoc]

NO not at all saying to use clay for the footing just for the base.

 

[gerard]

Guess I'm confused then about the groomer/ring conditioner you were referring to. Do you use that just to loosen up the sand? I would think you would not want to dig into the base? The groomers I've seen are used with dirt/clay arenas that get compacted and need to be scarified and loosened. That tends not to happen with a sand footing since the sand really doesn't compact.

 

[cowboydoc]

For reining Gerard you want your conditions absolutely perfect. The sand does compact to a degree. Not like dirt for sure but it does pack. Also it gets uneven in spots especially where you slide and spin. I've been at shows where the sliding areas and the spinning areas would get a dip in them if they didn't drag the arena after about every 10 runs. Also you want to turn your sand as well to add to the life of it. You are also going to save your base by keeping the sand even. If you don't use a an arena groomer of some type your arena will become very uneven.

 

[gerard]

that makes more sense - I still haven't seen reining so don't have a complete sense of what's involved.

 

[cowboydoc]

Gerard,
go to www.nrha.com. That is the reining website. Then go to sponsors and kiser arena specialists. That will show you the kind of groomer that i'm talking about.

 

[MikePA]

Here's the direct link to <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.kisermfg.com/>Kiser Manufacturing</A>. Be sure to check the horsepower recommendations for the size tractor needed to use these attachments.