Implement Selection

puter · Jul 12, 2002

I'm early on in the process of rationalizing the purchase of a CUT. What follows is my attempt to distill some of the salient wisdom I've gleaned from reading a few thousand TBN posts. Mind you, I haven't even sat on a CUT yet, so I'd appreciate comments and criticisms of my conclusions from those that have.

Overview: Tractor will be used to maintain/improve a 13 acre (half heavily wooded, half lawn with pond) property. Lots of tops and branches remain on the property from previous timbering.

Specific Objectives: Mowing, snow clearing (400ft flat driveway), garden prep, utility & drainage installs, lawn area prep, log/branch clean up, stump removal, dirt road/trail maintenance, landscaping projects.

Considerations: In general, for these projects, I'm willing to use a piece of equipment that is capable, but perhaps not optimal, for the tasks. i.e. I realize it may take a long time to get some stumps out. I'd like not to spend more than I have to, but equally, I'd like to not end up being disappointed in having purchased an undersized piece of equipment for my projects. I've been looking primarily at the BX22 and the JD 4210.

Preliminary Conclusions: My approach has been to try to identify the implements/attachements I require and then buy the tractor necessary to operate them.

The implements I think I need are: mower, loader, backhoe, snow blower, tiller, lawn rake with blade, and a chipper/shreader. In detail:

1) Mower: I'm torn between getting a mid-mount mower (better finish, less ground clearance) and a 3pt finish mower (worse finish, attach/detach hassle, better clearance, easier to mow pond edges).

2) Loader: The consensus seems to be that everyone should have one of these and that 2-3 chain hooks should be welded on, the bucket reinforced, and a toothbar added. It isn't clear to me whether the toothbar should be welded or bolted on. Is there a time when it would be adventageous to remove the toothbar? The BX22 lift capacity of 400+ lbs seems marginal (five 80lb bags of concrete mix max)? Should that be a concern?

3) Backhoe: Everyone that has one seems to think they're a blast... what other justification do you need? Seriously, trenching and stump removal would seem to make this a necessity.

4) Snow blower: Any concerns about winter operation of a CUT?

5 & 6) Tiller & Lawn rake w/ blade: It seems like this combination would obviate the need for a box blade. The tiller would seem to be appropriate for the garden prep, the lawn area prep (a one time thing), and for helping smooth/maintain the dirt roads/trails. The lawn rake helps with leaves and the constant branches from the "weed trees" near the pond, and the blade smooths the dirt roads that have been tilled.

7) Chipper/Shredder: There are lots of tops and piles of branches around here so this seems like an obvious answer. We can use the mulch for landscaping beds and the trails. My understanding is that the BX22 is rather small for this attachment so I'd likely be limited to chipping logs up to 4" or 5". Any reason I couldn't split and then chip larger logs that wouldn't make good firewood?

I'd be grateful for answers to any of the questions I've posed, thoughts on other things I should be considering, and the like. This forum is indeed a wonderful resource...

- Mark

Boondox · Jul 12, 2002

Welcome to the forum! Your uses sound similar to mine. 145 acres of hardwood forest from which I harvest firewood, 7 acres of meadow with pond and fruit trees, much harsh winter weather with deep snow. Let me address your specifics from my POV:

First, I think you need a larger tractor. When moving heavy stuff, or doing serious digging, mass is king. I started out with a 20hp Kubota and quickly realized it was too little tractor for what I needed it to do. Ended up trading up to an L3010, which does a great job.

Mower: If you think mounting a 3PH finish mower is a hassle, wait till you mount and dismount a MMM a few times! Have had them both, and I vastly prefer the rear discharge mower for finish work. Easier to mount, better finish (mine is a rear discharge mower, so I'm left with none of those nasty windrows to clean up), and much easier to mow under branches and around obstructions.

Loader: Wouldn't be caught dead without one. Since I use the FEL to smooth a lot, I don't use a toothbar. But an FEL with minimal lift is frustrating. This is one reason I think you'd be happier with a larger tractor. The B2910 or L3010/3410 from Kubota, the 4300 from JD, and the equivalent offerings from HN, MF and Kioti would give you much more in this area.

Backhoe: Love mine. My absolute favorite implement in the world. Mine runs off the tractor hydraulics, so I avoided the hassle and wear & tear of a PTO-driven pump. But considering how much my ballasted L3010 gets tossed around when using it, can't imagine using one on a smaller tractor.

Snow blower and use in winter: My neighbor is a ski resort, so we get plenty of snow. Nevertheless, I have yet to see a single snowblower in use except for the little hand-steered models. Probably because most of our snow comes 2-3" at a time...and the three large snow dumps each winter can't justify a blower. I use my rear blade to plow snow into piles, and the FEL to push those piles out of the way. Works fine. As for winter operation: dress warmly, get a block heater, and let your tractor warm up thoroughly before using.

Rake: I got one for the junk branches you mentioned, but found that they fall at such a slow rate it's less time consuming to simply pick them up by hand when they fall. I suppose I could let them accumulate for a couple of months, but then the grass would hide them. Besides, if they're small enough I simply mow them into pieces. But I do use my rake to dethatch the meadow in early spring, to derock my road and driveways on occasion, and to rake up leaves in the fall.

Rear blade: Mine sees a lot of use: snowplowing, sculpting my winter luge run, crowning the road, and even plowing the garden under.

Tiller and chipper: Trying to convince the wife we need a tiller. Not having much luck. But after I "till" her garden expansion with the backhoe she might change her mind! A shredder I can't justify. Burn piles are much less expensive and easier to maintain.

Hope this helps. Sorry to have been so long winded.

Pete in northern Vermont

Fly_Rodr · Jul 12, 2002

I live in the snow belt of NE ohio (lake effect snow) and I've never needed a snow blower, just the rear blade and FEL. I do think that a larger tractor should be considered. I have a similar property doing the same tasks as you describe. Stumps once freed up can be very heavy to move. I believe the larger tractor will offer more traction and FEL ablity to help with snow removal and the stump removal. I just ordered a New Holland TC33D with a BH so this will be my first backhoe/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. Just sold my JD950 with FEL. 3PT mower much easier to take on and off as compared to MMM and to back along pond and tree edges. I too am thinking about a chipper, there seems to be a lot of good things mentioned about the DR chippers, I don't want to tie my tractor up with a 3PT model. Good luck, your sure to find all the information that you need on this forum

EdKing · Jul 12, 2002

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth here.

1. As far as mowers, a mid mount is not an option for me as my Long Landtrac 360DTC does not support one. Even if it did I think I would go with the rear finish mower for ease of attachment/removal. Mowing the yard was not what I had in mind when I purchased my tractor any way, I have a Sears lawn tractor that does thid job fine.

2. Go with a bolt-on toothbar, there are many applications where it is easier with a smooth edge, while the tooth bar makes digging with the loader much easier. The only thing difficult about attaching/removing the toothbar is the weight. It takes a little grunting to manuver it into and out of posistion to attach/remove.

3. I have a backhoe, and I just love it. I find myself thinking up projects just to use it.

4. In my area, southwestern Pa, the snowblower would just be an expensive "white elephant." I have yet to get enough snow that I couldn't remove it with the backblade and the loader.

5. I wouldn't recomend a tiller for road work. You usually want a hard packed surface with gravel embedded, I think the tiller would defeat this by constantly softening the road surface. If you plan on a large garden, the tiller will be great for that.

6. I plan on purchasing a chipper/shredder within the next few months, but I consider anything over 2" diameter to be firewood, either for heating or campfires, so I wouldn't feel it nessisary to chip any thing larger.

I would definitly go for something larger, for the added weight and horsepower.

tdenny · Jul 12, 2002

Puter,

It sounds like you do need a little more oomph than you are looking at. I'm sure either of the machines you mentioned would be sufficient but I think you may want more HP.

I would agree with the others as far as mowers go. Although I don't have either a 3PH mower (yet) or a belly mower everything I've gleaned from the experts here suggests that the rear finish mower is clearly the better choice if you have enough room to maneuver. I read many horror stories about how much of a pain the belly mower can be to put on and take off.

I think you might want either a box blade or a rear blade to do your dirt road/trail maintenance.

You might want a bush hog of some sort as well to help clear off those projected trail areas.

The FEL is a must in my opinion.

Definitely get the backhoe if you have the extra money. I would love to have one of those. Good luck

beenthere · Jul 12, 2002

In my opinion, you are getting excellent advice so far. Hope I don't change that with my comments. Go with more HP, (my suggestion would be the Deere 4310 or 4410, or its equivalent which to me depends on the dealer that you can work with), and go for a FEL (with forks), a front blade (or rear as a second choice), removable bucket teeth, a HD bucket that doesn't need additional beefing up, and an i-match 3pt (or equivalent). For the tiller, I would initially rent to decide if purchase is necessary. For chipping, I would wait and see if removing firewood (2" and up) and burning brush piles (using the forks and bucket to pile) would suffice (no chips though). The backhoe will be something you can always use.

But regardless of the above decisions, have the dealer show (not just describe) how the attachments go on and off. I know how the Deere FEL quickly and easily is removed and hooked up, how the i-match 3pt attachments are easy, I hear that the Backhoe is relatively easy, and I know the MMM is easy (I would initially go with the 3pt rear mower and move to MMM later if needed). Good luck and have fun.

puter · Jul 13, 2002

Thanks to all for the responses. The strong concensus seems to be to look at a larger tractor... so I'll do some more reading.

I'd concluded (perhaps erroneously) that you can expect to spend an extra 2K or so for each level you step up in tractor size. That doesn't seem to hold once you throw a backhoe into the mix. Unless I'm missing something, stepping up from the BX22 and getting a backhoe is going to be a 5K+ proposition. I understand a JD 4310 w/ FEL & BH would be 27-28K. That's a pretty hefty jump.

If my understanding is correct, the rationale for getting a larger tractor (in my case) has as much or more to do with the increased tractor weight than the additional HP. The B2410 ups the loader capacity quite a bit (770 lbs), wouldn't that be a good alternative to the larger 2710/2910s?

If I can be more of a bother, I have a couple other questions.

1) The mid-PTO specs all cite RPM figures that are faster than the rear PTO RPMs by a factor of 4 or so. How does that translate into mowing performance for MMMs vs. 3pt mowers?

2) The consensus seems to be that the snowblower is an unnecessary expense for one that has both a blade and the FEL. I'd been looking at a combo land rake with flip down blade and was wondering if that'll be sufficient for snow removal or if I should be looking at separate, perhaps heavier implements?

Thanks again for the help.

- Mark

Boondox · Jul 13, 2002

Puter -- Yes, getting a heavier tractor with bh will be a significant jump in price. But going too small comes with a price, too. I wanted a Grande-L series tractor. The wife said an ATV would have to do. We bought a Honda Foreman. Nice piece of equipment, but it couldn't do the job. So we bought a Kubota B1750. Nice piece of equipment, but it couldn't do the job. So finally we bought a Kubota L3010. Great piece of machinery, but of course all the 1750 implements were too small and had to be replaced. Cost me in the long run big time, although the B1750 itself sold for $500 more than I had originally paid for it.

The JD is a nice tractor, but it's a new line. If you look at a line that's longer in the tooth -- like the L-series Kubota -- you might save several thousand off that price. Sort of like when Dodge revolutionized the style of their pickups a few years ago all the other brands had to lower their prices to remain attractive...

Your other questions:
1) Implements designed for the mid-PTO are geared differently. You will find no difference in performance related to the faster PTO speed.

2)Depends on how much snow you get. If you deal with significant amounts, moldboard height will become a significant factor. Some of the cheaper rear blades and rake/blade combos have only about a foot of moldboard height, and the snow goes right over the top. I use a LandPride 3572 with a 17"+ height, and it does a great job.

Email me if you need some .jpg files. Good luck. Pete

gerard · Jul 13, 2002

I live in a high snow area and use a 7 foot backblade just fine. More versatile implement since you can use it on other things too. Snowblower is pretty expensive and dedicated only to snow.

ditto on going bigger. I have 11 acres 27 hp and that's just about right. I'd be looking at least at a 25-30hp if I were you. L3010 would be perfect.

backhoe - nice but you can get that later as finances permit. Worry about the tractor first and add implements as you can. Also unless you have a lot of backhoe work you can rent/hire a lot of work for the $6000 a backhoe is going to cost you.

mower - personally I bought a separate lawn tractor for $1200 to mow about 1.25 acres of finish lawn. Cheaper than a rear finish mower, a LOT cheaper than a mid mount, and more maneuverable. If I had large open grass and was that concerned with finish cut I'd probably get a 5 or 7 gang reel mower. Better cut and faster

Loader is a must

stump removal - see wroughtn harv's stump removal gadget. Great concept and simple/cheap to make

You should be able to get a 30hp gear w/ loader for under $17K or there-abouts.

pieterv · Jul 13, 2002

You are getting some really good avise from others, and without bias.
Now mine will be biased but I believe I state facts: a belly mount mower ( and we have consdered strongly to build them ) is MUCH more expensive per lb and working width than a rear mount. I use the rule of thumb of 50% higher ( and no better mowing ).
Also I have been told many times that clearance is often minimal. You bog down with one of your tractor tinres and now ytou have to worry about the mower clearance.

Ever since the introduction of FOUR wheel rear mowers and floating-adjustable-clevis-type hitchblocks on them, it has been downhill for Belly Mounts.

In their defense: you only run over uncut grass with the front tires of the tractor. But, the newer UPLIFT blades on mowers take care of that.

Choices of Rear Mounts: some 35 brands...Choices of Belly units often no more than THE one provided by the tractor brand you will fit it on. Get the picture on pricing ?

Make your dealer price the belly unit SEPERATELY when you evaluate cost and then you can compare apples with apples.

Whatever you decide enjoy it !

Hawkflyer · Jul 13, 2002

The two primary attachments that are driving your selection process will be the backhoe and the chipper. The hoe is a heavy implement. I have one, and the best thing I can recommend for you is that you spend the extra money and get a sub frame. I have converted mine from a TPH connection to a sub frame, and the difference is like night and day. The Hoe is now like a part of the machine instead of an attachment. I can put it on and take it off in about 10 min. and the whole operation is a lot safer.But as I said this is a heavy implement. You need a machine heavy enough to carry it and sit solid while you are operating it. The chipper is also driving your selection. In this case the issues are weight as with the hoe, and PTO power. I have a bearcat chipper. The manual says it is for PTOs between 20 and 40 hp. On my old Kubota B7100, it would bog down with logs in the 5-6 inch range. These were at the maximum size the chipper could handle. The 7100 had 13 PTO HP. I have since bought a B2410 with 18 PTO HP and the chipper can chew any thing that will fit in the chute.Either the hoe or the chipper are heavy enough to justify adding a loader just to balance the weight.So IMHO, you should be looking at the horsepower range of a BX2200, but you may want to consider at least a "B" series for the greater ground clearance, and weight. Something in the B2410, B2710, or B2910 range. The B2910 may be a little larger than you need, and it is really a little over priced in my opinion. The B2710 might fit the bill. The B2410 gives you a little more flexibility in tire selection than a larger machine. I do not know what the equivilient machines in the JD line are but they should work for you as well. All of the other implements you mentioned would run just fine on a machine that can handle the hoe and chipper.Good luck.

Anonymous Poster · Jul 13, 2002

Forgot to address the Mower RPM:

Belly Mounts have different gearbox ratio's than Rear Mounts.
In the end, the blade tip speed is about the same: 12000 - 16000 FPM.
Faster MAY cause excesssive wear, vibration and does not mow better. IF higher speed would help, someone would offer 60.000 FPM. No one does..!

The rational of the mid-mount PTO: why slow it down to 540 RPM if it only drives a mower that needs a high speed anyhow. So the Engineers left the step-down out on the tractor and therefore did not need a speed-up on the Mower gearbox. The gearboxes are very pricey and so are the connecting shafts..! Double or more than for the Rear Mounts.

I read with interest the really great advise from other TBN'ers.

Enjoy your decisons !

Woody1 · Jul 13, 2002

my .02

snowblower.....dont bother
backhoe....if you can afford it, go for it, if not do it later when you can afford it.
rear blade.....get one. make sure it pivots, and swings. box blade? never had one, so cant advise on it.
mid mount mower? something that turned me off when i bought one....I couldnt run with my tires in the widest position. bought a 0 turn mower and got rid of MMM. Tractor is used for tractor stuff, not mowing. also if/when you get a loader(which you HAVE to have one of these) and you have lots of trees like i do, mowing around with a loader is ,well, challenging. found that was easier to take loader off, put mower on, mow, take mower off, put loader on and do the other stuff that tractor are sposed to do. like dig and haul dirt. Till, dig post holes, grade drivways, etc.......

When i bought mine, wanted a hoe too. But 3 yrs. later, woulkd have been nice, but a little hand digging to get the stumps dug out(good excercise), thats if i couldnt dig them out with the loader, and tradeing off my MMM/front blade/snow blower and the money i saved by NOT buying a hoe has paid for my 0 turn. 26 HP Gavely, 62" hydro. deck.
AND! my tractor wheels are now filled with fluid and in the widest position they can get, giving me more stability on sidehills.
Teeth on bucket? would be nice here on clay, but use the tiller to loosen the soil, then loader picks it up nicely, and also its not got clods in it

BrettW · Jul 13, 2002

Have a look at the largest Yanmar grey market tractors. If you buy from a good dealer, you cant go wrong, this will save you enough money to get any and all implements you want. No I dont sell them. bw

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 14, 2002

"The BX22 "

I think you'd be sadly disappointed in that model for your size property. My local Kubota dealer told me those aren't classified as a 'Compact' tractor but rather a relatively new classification of 'Sub-Compact.' When I first saw one I described it as looking like "a garden tractor on steroids." /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

If you like the Kubota line (and there's really no reason not to), you might want to look at the 2710 or 3010 models. I think you'd be far happier with one of those.

I happen to own a John Deere 4200 MFWD with FEL and BH and am very happy with it. Of course, like all tractor owners, there are days I wish it was the model or so up the line with more power, but that's just human nature.

I'm sure there are many other brands you can consider that would do you a fine job. All of the advice you've gotten above is worth considering. I agree with others that my backhoe is a lot of fun and a very useful item, too.

puter · Jul 15, 2002

ok, I'm convinced, a larger tractor is in order for the uses I'm anticipating. What sways my opinion most, in addition to the near unanimous feedback I've received here, are several older threads (in particular <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showflat.pl?cat=&Board=buykubota&Number=13202>this</A> one) in which someone describes purchasing a smaller tractor to do tasks similar to mine, which they are then disappointed with and very shortly trade-in for a larger one. Save for the counsel received here, I suspect that would have happened to me as well, so I'm very grateful to all who took the time to respond.

That said, moving to a larger tractor w/ a BH significantly changes the economics involved and causes me to reconsider some of how I've attempted to justify this purchase. I was kidding in my initial post when I said I was attempting to "rationalize" a tractor purchase,... now I'm not so sure.

My initial thoughts were that if I took the cash that would otherwise go towards purchasing a good mower or paying someone to mow the lawn, plus the cash for snow plowing, and for digging the drainage and utility ditches, and for pulling the stumps, and for clearing part of the lot, and for cleaning out the pond... well, I'd be a long ways towards the price of a tractor.

Now it's not going to be nearly as close as I thought (10K buys a lot of excavating) and I've learned that this tractor is probably minimally suited for some of the tasks (i.e. digging out 36"+ stumps) and probably not at all suited for others (like cleaning out the pond). Further, I get the impression that these tractors are really not very good at one of the primary tasks for which I'm considering it: mowing the lawn. For lawns, (as opposed to fields or trails that need brush cutting) something like a 7K Exmark ZTR would accomplish the task better, faster and cheaper.

This really isn't a criticism of the tractors, it just reflects my ignorance going into this process about the capabilities and costs of these machines. I suspect that my approach to justifying the purchase of a tractor parallels that of many others who are considering a tractor for non-commercial use. So, given the limitations of my first attempt, here's "take #2" at justifying the purchase of a tractor (guilty of thread-creep in my third post... is that a record?):

I very much believe that a tractor is an "enabling" piece of equipment; that there are numerous tasks and projects that would never be considered or accomplished (despite the availability of rental units) without one being readily available. So, what I'd like to do is try to calculate, as best I can, what it will cost to have this piece of equipment available each day.

As a real simple example, if you assume that the tractor costs $25K, lasts for 20 years, requires no maintenace, and you steal your fuel from a neighbor, that tractor costs about $ 3.43 per day to have available.

For a more realistic example, I'd need some estimates as to how many hours you can expect the engine to last, maintenance costs, fuel usage, etc. This sort of information is readily available for small planes, I know that I can go buzz around the sky for an hour in a Cessna 172 and it costs about $60 including the engine reserve. Is this sort of information available for tractors?

I figured that I could get an estimate by looking at the monthly rental rates, minus 20% or so for margin, but that left me at $50+ per day and without an hours of use/day estimate and a tractor life expectancy, it's tough to turn that into anything meaningful.

So, does anyone have, or know where I can get that kind of information? Thanks again!!

- Mark

Gary_in_Indiana · Jul 15, 2002

"if you assume that the tractor costs $25K, lasts for 20 years"

Just for your information, what are probably the most popular tractors of all time, the Ford 'N' series (8N, 9N, 2N, Jubilee, etc.) cost an average of around $1400 new, are now averaging over 50 years old and, in good condition sell for $2000-3500 today.

mikim · Jul 15, 2002

I bought the implements I knew I'd be using on a very regular basis and they didn't cost a fortune. mower, boxblade, and phd -- I'd love a backhoe but can't justify the cost vs. how much I'd use it. The backhoe I'd get for my TC45 would run $7000+ and I can rent a full size commercial for $300 a day. That works out to about 24 days is all - but - I don't see me using a backhoe even that much. You have to compare cost vs usage for your own personal situation. Everybody does different things with their equipment. For me - when the equipment cost tops $1000 -- I'd better use the devil out of it, otherwise I'll be feeling foolish and guilty seeing it sit idle, and figuring that money could have been spent better elsewhere. I like the idea of "try it before you buy it" rent a piece and see if you really will use it enough to justify buying and it gives you a good idea of size & options needed too.
mike

Boondox · Jul 15, 2002

A backhoe is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

And useful? I used to clean out the garage only to find my wife right behind me dragging crap back in. But ever since I started burying the junk six feet under my garage has been spotless! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Pete