I might need to sell my 7710-II

[JSharp]

I don't see the "miscommunication" Renze is speaking of. You were told $900 more than once for the block work. You approved the additional PTO work after a call from them.

You never approved a complete short block.

They do "have a lot of money" in the tractor at this point but much of what they have in it is profit. Possibly as much as 50%. The fact that they won't admit the mistake, won't move from their price, won't accept even a small amount less profit and to add insult to injury are charging you interest tells me they couldn't care less about you as a customer, or about being an honest business. The others you've mentioned who've been treated in similar fashion help prove the last point if there was any doubt.

This is exactly why we have organizations like the BBB. It's also why we have attorneys and the civil court system...

 

[Robert_in_NY]

What was the turbo cost? Have them remove it and put old turbo on.
Personally, I would sit down with them, explain your situation ( I am sure they know, but explain it again) Tell them you need their help on the fees and what can be done on the cost. Can they sell you the parts at cost, reduce the hourly labor rate. Then ask if you can make payments to them, starting with whatever time frame you establish. They keep the tractor till whatever time frame you establish. Ask to remove all service fees. Plead with them to help you out. Then and only then; if you can not agreee, tell them you are very sorry; but you will have to retain an attorney to resolve this problem. This will cost them money also.
Worst case is you lose your tractor and continue to make payments.
You can still put it up for sale and sell it and reduce payoff amount.
Good luck, and I hope 2008 will bring you the needed happiness and health you deserve.
I would be happy to send you $20.00 as a token of appreciation for all your contributiions to this forum. PM me with your address.

They knew my situation before most of my family did as my friend who works there is in the fire department and he found out I was the one who was hurt well before most of my family. So when I finally did go there to talk everyone was glad to see me. As I wrote earlier, I orignially tried to talk a trade in hope of getting a favorable trade to help make up with the mistake as they would not back down from their bill. The trade terms were a joke.

I then stopped again to talk to the manager but the fact I don't have the money to give them they won't even start to negotiate. I need cash in hand in order for them to talk.

I will not beg them or anything of the sort. I will talk honestly to them and try to work out a deal that is fair to both of us. If that doesn't work then I will pursue other options.

I appreciate your offer to send money but I do not feel right accepting money from others regardless of the reason. The only time I would willingly accept money from others would be if my daughter needed help that I couldn't afford. But I pray that will never happen.

This tractor thing is an inconvience but not the end of the world. I have always been lucky in that things usually work out for me. I am confident that this will work out one way or the other. Either I sell the tractor and clear all debt and start over from scratch with the deal or I reach a settlement and keep the tractor. Both options have advantages so I should be ok.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

This is exactly why we have organizations like the BBB. It's also why we have attorneys and the civil court system...

I agree but I prefer to try and settle things on my own unless I have no other options. I don't like people that are always quick to sue or to threaten to report you to places like the BBB. I try my best to work with people and address the situation and hopefully both parties learn from it.

 

[JSharp]

I agree but I prefer to try and settle things on my own unless I have no other options. I don't like people that are always quick to sue or to threaten to report you to places like the BBB. I try my best to work with people and address the situation and hopefully both parties learn from it.

I don't disagree with you Robert, I hope it doesn't sound like I do. Be nice, be nicer, give everyone the benefit of the doubt for as long as you can stand. Right up until you run out of options and it's obvious you're getting nowhere while it's all going their way.

You've been very patient and tried to work things out. I don't see how you're at fault in any way here nor are you jumping the gun no matter what you decide to do...

 

[Renze]

O.k. robert, so they DID gave you a price of $900 to replace the engine block: Then ignore my last post (then it was MY fault misreading your words)

So, to sum this up: (correct me if i'm wrong)

-you lost clutch on your tractor, dealer assumed a throwout bearing and estimated $900. It was confirmed to be the throwout bearing.
-Dealer found an allmost worn out PTO clutch, estimated $1300 and replaced that also, with your approval.
-dealer found some sort of failure to the engine, estimated $900 to change just the engine BLOCK.


I see 2 problems here:

-You're not sure if the prices the dealer said ($900 to replace a throwout bearing, $1300 to replace a PTO clutch) are with or without the cost of labor.

- You say that the dealer mentioned $900 for a new engine block. The dealer denies that. They DID speak of the price of $900 to replace the THROWOUT BEARING.... Coincident, or misunderstanding ?

The dealer probably found that the total cost to install a shortblock and transplant the cylinder heads, was a lot cheaper than to buy just a bare block and transplant every moving part from the old block, because of the labor hours of the latter...


What was the reason that your engine block was to be replaced ? The well known cavitation problem in early '80s Ford engines ? a frost crack ???

 

[Robert_in_NY]

O.k. robert, so they DID gave you a price of $900 to replace the engine block: Then ignore my last post (then it was MY fault misreading your words)

So, to sum this up: (correct me if i'm wrong)

-you lost clutch on your tractor, dealer assumed a throwout bearing and estimated $900. It was confirmed to be the throwout bearing.
-Dealer found an allmost worn out PTO clutch, estimated $1300 and replaced that also, with your approval.
-dealer found some sort of failure to the engine, estimated $900 to change just the engine BLOCK.

Adding that up means $3100. Add 60 hours of labour for a rate of, lets say $50 per hour, is $6100 total...

They however did not replace the block, but installed a complete shortblock, with cranks, pistons, connecting rods, bearings, camshafts, etcetera
If the shortblock costs $5000 instead of $900 for a bare block, that would total $10.200


Further comments, as a hobby/part time mechanic:
$900 is quite some money to replace a throwout bearing... I replaced a throwout bearing on my Zetor, parts cost 50 Euro, with an extra pair of hands to help, i could do this in a day, in a FARM workshop... Lets say 12 hrs of labor MAX !!

Even though i've never worked on Fords, i would gladly replace that throwout bearing if you payd me $900 !!!!

The PTO clutch:

10 hours of work are in splitting and fitting the tractor back together, between engine and clutch housing. But because the clutch throwout bearing was to be replaced, they had to do the splitting anyhow.

I have no idea what kind of PTO is fitted to the 7710, i think its a hydraulically operated wet multiplate clutch. I think $1300 is a reasonable price.

About the engine block, I would assume that $900 euro is for just the casting...
I agree with the service manager, when he says its impossible to buy the actual block and swap the internals into it, for $900...

What was the reason that your engine block was to be replaced ? The well known cavitation problem in early '80s Ford engines ? a frost crack ???
Over here, you can get a COMPLETE 7710 engine WITH turbo, for about 5000 Euro... They put them also in older 6700 tractors.

Renze, please accept my apology. I don't know why I said throw out bearing as it wasn't and for somereason I said the wrong thing. The problem was the tractor blew a oil sending unit or something to that affect and lost oil. As soon as this happened I had the warning come on in the cab for low oil pressure. I was at the back of the field so I shut the discbine down as I tried to get it to the road. I should have just shut down immediately but this is a lesson I learned during this . Anyway, I spun a bearing and lost power. It wasn't a throw out bearing (I have no idea why I would have wrote that unless I had a brain cramp). I had to tow the tractor to the shop.

I also apologize for missing your other post. The only work I gave permission to do was repair the engine using a new block and to repair the pto. The pto they called me about and asked if I wanted them to repair it or not. The engine block we discussed three times. It was the Service Manager who I talked to every time while the tractor was in the shop. He is the one who quoted $900 for the engine. The one day we even discussed my options as we looked at what was left standing of my tractor. He told me the option and price as well as what was required with that option.

For $900 I would get a new block and they would change out what was good from my motor to the new block as well as swap everything else over.

For $5400 I could get a new shortblock, they would swap over all the external parts to the short block and I guess the heads as well (I don't know much about the insides of motors so please forgive me if I make a mistake with words on this).

For $7000+ (I can't remember the actual number) I could get an entire new motor that would just bolt in and I would be out the door.

I looked at these options and chose the cheapes option and the Service Manager agreed that was the cheapest route.

I knew just doubling these prices would give me a rough figure and more or less would be expected. Hindsight shows I should have had everything written down and clarified perfectly.

Anyway, I agreed to just the block and the pto work. Instead of replacing the block like we agreed they went with the short block and sent the heads off to be resurfaced or something like that (again, I am sorry for my lack of knowledge regarding motors). They then replaced the oil pump and Turbo charger without my knowledge or approval. The Turbo was another $1100.

If I understood right, the complete engine would have had the turbo and oil pump already also so when all was said and done it would have been cheaper for them to buy a complete engine.

Also, I am looking at my bill and I just realized they charged me over $5700 for the short block instead of the $5400 he originally said it would cost if I went that route

This entire thing is a mess. I thought I covered myself by explaining what I wanted and didn't want. I told them I didn't have a lot of money which is why I was looking for what could be done cheapest. I also told them exactly "when you open the tractor look everything over and if you find something that needs attention, call me and let me know the problem and how much it will cost to fix so I can decide" The oil pump isn't a lot of money so if it needed replacing then so be it but I don't know why they replaced the turbo. They told me they always replace the turbo in these situations (repair types). I don't know if there is a way to test a turbo but mine worked fine before I spun a bearing. I also don't know why if this is something they always do why I wasn't informed ahead of time I was going to have to pay $1100 for a turbo from them (for comparison, I could buy the same exact Turbocharger from Messicks for $960 ).

Once again Renze, I want to apologize for writing the wrong bearing and confusing you. To make it up I am going to write what was done to the tractor according to my bill.

"Tractor came in with no oil in it
Filled up with Engine oil, put oil pressure gauge on and ran tractor
Oil pressure dropped off quickly after starting tractor and after a minute, motor started to knock
Brought tractor into shop removed front end and dropped oil pan
Found spun bearings on Rods,
Brought Front End outside and removed Engine
Found that clutch was ok, but pto shaft was bad, removed transmission to replace shaft, rebuilt pto clutch pack while transmission was off Installed new shaft and put transmission back on
Checked Dual Power while tractor was split-looked ok, resealed and put back together, sent out head to be resurfaced and rebuilt Installed with new short block, installed new oil pump & block heater
Installed new Turbo, put front back on and installed rest of tractor.
Put on dyno and it showe 120hp, no leaks"

This is word for word what was done according to my bill. Hopefully that will help some.

 

[JoeinTX]

RinNY, you seem to be a pretty docile individual. I consider myself much the same and when dealing with these issues I like to think I'm level-headed and reasonable. In my "real" job, I deal directly with upset customers and it has taught me a great deal about customer service, expectations, and what can be reasonably expected. I give people some lattitude to misuderstand, make mistakes, people who try too hard to help and only make things worse. In short, I'm pretty ease to please.


But this would have me going apoplectic!

This was purely and simply a mistake on their part.

"But what about all the parts and labor they put into it...?" The reason they used all of those parts and expended that amount of labor was due TO THEIR MISTAKE. Not yours.

I take it that NO ONE, not a soul, at this dealer has been willing to listen and consider the fact that they may have made a mistake? This service manager claims now to have never discussed the limited options with you and now asserts that you told him explicitly to do whatever they thought needed done regardless? Since none of this is on paper, the dealer cannot prove that you did in fact authorize this amount of repair or charges to be done. Have you asked to prove it?

I actually find it hard to imagine a dealer going to these lengths without contacting you first to prevent things just like this from happening. Now, I know, I've dealt with auto repair places that have tried to sneak in a few extra parts/charges on an insurance claim but that would've amounted to less that $1000......nothing like you're dealing with here.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

My friends know the situation but there is nothing they can do. The only one person who can do anything about this is the store manager unless I go over his head to the dealership owner. I try not to go over peoples heads unless I need to. So like I said in other post, I will try once more to settle this before using my other options.

With this type of thing, if the service manager messed up and bought a short block instead of just the block then the price jumps a lot. It could have been an innocent mistake but for whatever reason this thing snow balled into this current situation. And right now the Service Manager is covering his own back side and leaving me to hang

 

[JDGREEN4ME]

I actually find it hard to imagine a dealer going to these lengths without contacting you first to prevent things just like this from happening. Now, I know, I've dealt with auto repair places that have tried to sneak in a few extra parts/charges on an insurance claim but that would've amounted to less that $1000......nothing like you're dealing with here.

I recently dropped my '03 F250 off for inspection and service with written permission to take care of whatever it needed without contacting me. I got home from work thinking there would be a message my truck was done, instead there was a message that my wipers needed replaced and they wanted permission to change them. I called them back and wasn't very happy with them for in my opinion "wasting time". After reading this thread I guess I should have been happy they called.

 

[Renze]

Robert,

So the actual problem was a "thrown crankshaft bearing" , not a throwout bearing
I think i fully understand it now.


If it was MY tractor and i was going to do the repair, i would have taken this route:

-dismantle the crankshaft and have it reground on the particular crank where the damaged crankshaft bearing was
- replace all the other crankshaft bearings as well, as a prevention because the tractor ran without oil pressure, and i could probably buy the set of bearings for less than $200, and for regrinding the crank, you need to take them all out anyways.
-test the tractor on the dyno to see if the turbo hasnt been damaged.
The turbo is very sensitive for low oil pressure because of the high speed of the turbine, between 15.000 and 25.000 rpm usually. However a turbo bearing failure usually doesnt cause collateral damage to the tractor, so leaving it to see what it does, would be safe.

FYI, a "short"block, is the lower part of an engine block, without heads (and manifolds, turbo etcetera.)

Why did they tell you that you needed a new engine BLOCK if you just spun a crankshaft bearing ? did you misunderstand that part, or did the connecting rod also come loose and was smashed through the block wall by the crankshaft ?

Was the crankshaft bearing, the cause of the loss of oil pressure, or did the oil pump fail, dropping the oil pressure to zero and starving the entire crankshaft of oil, which resulted in bearing failures ?

If there was no collateral damage to the BLOCK itself, there was no reason to replace the entire block, and a crankshaft regrind would suffice. All parts it would need then, was some new crankshaft bearings, and it could definately be repaired for the $900 you were quoted.