I apparently don't understand oil weights

   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #1  

LittleBill21

Elite Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
2,547
Location
PA
Tractor
Mahindra Max 26XL, White
Some one please explain to me how this chart works. why is 5w-30 only rated to 50f, but 10w-30 is rated to 80, yet 10w-40 is only good to to 80f, yet 15w-40 is good to 100?

I thought the last number was its "hot temperature" so shouldn't 40w be the same regardless of the cold W number?


1615076220521.png
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #2  
Not sure where the chart came from, but-

The first number is the winter rating. That is what the “w” stands for (winter). The lower the number, the better the oil will flow in cold weather. So, 5w is better at lower temps than 15w.

The second number is the hot weather rating. The higher the number, the thicker the oil is at a high temp. So, 40 is better at higher temps than 30.

Maybe you will like this chart better.

IMG_1243.JPG


MoKelly
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights
  • Thread Starter
#3  
yes but the hot temp rating has 2 different max ambient ratings, which makes no sense. this is out of a onan generator manual
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #4  
yes but the hot temp rating has 2 different max ambient ratings, which makes no sense. this is out of a onan generator manual

I can’t answer your question - but - this same question was asked in 2014 on another forum. No answer there as well. Interesting.

IMG_1244.JPG


MoKelly
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights
  • Thread Starter
#5  
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights
  • Thread Starter
#6  
My take on this is that these older charts are based on dino oils. With dino oils, the bottom number is the base stock used for the final product. Viscosity improvers are added to bring up the 100*C rating. With age, the viscosity improvers depleat, leaving you with a final product that is closer to the original lighter base stock oil. These oils then become too thin for heavy or high speed sustained use. The industry is probably being conservative in derating the oil because of this.
pretty interesting. do you have docs that talk to this? this is the first i heard of this and it does make sense.
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #7  
My take on this is that these older charts are based on dino oils. With dino oils, the bottom number is the base stock used for the final product. Viscosity improvers are added to bring up the 100*C rating. With age, the viscosity improvers depleat, leaving you with a final product that is closer to the original lighter base stock oil. These oils then become too thin for heavy or high speed sustained use. The industry is probably being conservative in derating the oil because of this.
Meh. You assume “synthetic” is a magic elixir changing everything.

In general the W number represents the base stock viscosity grade based on oil production technology pre-WWII. Since then much has been learned about which molecules are useful to lessen the viscosity decrease with temperature. Synthetic manufacturing methods makes selection of desired molecules easier. Synthetic manufacturing has helped identify useful molecules.

Viscosity Improvers have always been synthetic compounds which have been found to lessen the viscosity decrease with temperature increase when mixed with base oil. As K7LN says VI compounds are weaker than base oil.

The 2nd number in the viscosity grade has nothing to do with the weather. It represents the viscosity of that pre-WWII oil at 100°C. Be ware “40” at 100°C is thinner than 5W at it’s rated temperature. As temperature increases 5W-40 gets thinner, not thicker.

Nothing about synthetic or conventional says anything absolute about VI, how much, or even if any is used. Is not listed on the bottle. SAE/API, JASO, ACEA, etc, write very few standards stipulation how goals must be accomplished, mostly just stipulate the goals. They don’t say how to achieve viscosity grades. Don’t say what additives to use, but will limit how much of certain additives are allowed.

Life of multigrade oil is usually determined by how long it stays in grade. How long before the 40 becomes a 30. An oil with more VI additives probably will not stay in grade as long as another which required fewer to achieve same grade. There are extended drain standards which require viscosity to stay in grade plus longer term acid neutralization and other things. This is not an automatic property of synthetic.

Better base oils are required when additives are limited.

The charts cited do not make sense. At 100°C viscosity of 5W-40, 10W-40, and 15W-40 should be indistinguishable.

The W grades are based on the temperature the oil thickens to a value some deem too difficult to pump through the engine. 20W reaches that viscosity at -20°C. Then every 5 steps 5°C. So 15W is -25°C. 10W is -30°C. 5W us -35°C. 5W is the same viscosity at -35°C as 15W at -25°C. The actual lowest usable temperature is determined by the engine manufacturer.
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #8  
I think this is just a reflection of the fact that multi-weight aren't quite what they seem to be. It's harder to make a 10W-40 oil that performs like 40W when hot than it is to make a 15w-40. I learned this really early when I experimented and found that 10W-30 oil wouldn't hold the same idle oil pressure as 30W when warm. That's why I'm more comfortable with 15W-40 than something like 5W-40. Fortunately I park in a heated building and can run it year round.
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #9  
Think all those charts with upper max temps are for air cooled engines. All water cooled engines operate at the cooling water temperature set by thermostat, usually about 190 F; so maximum operating temperature for all oils is about 200 F (allowing about 10 F across the metal to the water), probably more like 212 F where the upper oil # is rated.

The upper # in oil rating is at its operating temperature, which is as I said above near 212 F.

The lower # in oil rating is its starting temperature, which is usually ambient air. It is by a different kind of measurement than the upper temperature.

There are millions of VW TDIs running around the world with 5w30 in their crankcases and running in very hot conditions. VW says they've never had an engine failure due to lubrication.

Millions of gasoline engines running around with 0w20 oils in their crankcases and running in very hot conditions.

I've read, too, where racing engines like Ferrari use straight 10w oil. This is probably for 2 reasons: 1) overpressure protection at start of race with a cold engine, 2) overpressure protection during the race when revving at 10k rpm or more.

Those TDIs and 0w20 gasoline engined vehicles all have synthetic oils. Synthetic will run the range from about 0w up to 40 with no additives needed. Kenny, you're wrong.

I once had a VW Cabrio with hydraulic valve lifters. One or two of the 8 lifters would apparently drain down during shutdown. The lifters would pound like mad unless I used a 0w30 (should have used 0w20). They pound when air filled and not oil filled. This is even at mild air conditions. The oil pump just picks the oil so much faster the lower that first # is. A 15w40 oil will leave your engine starving for oil for a few seconds even in mild conditions. Fortunately, if it hasn't been sitting too long, that heavy oil will still linger on the bearing surfaces. But enough to last a few seconds when an engine starts at fast idle?

Ralph
 
   / I apparently don't understand oil weights #10  
Some one please explain to me how this chart works. why is 5w-30 only rated to 50f, but 10w-30 is rated to 80, yet 10w-40 is only good to to 80f, yet 15w-40 is good to 100?

I thought the last number was its "hot temperature" so shouldn't 40w be the same regardless of the cold W number?


View attachment 689086
That is not the oil's rating these are the manufactures recommendations for different temperature ranges of ambient temperature.
If the outside temperature is getting down to 10F the maximum low rating they want is 15W,
If it is getting down to 0F they want a maximum rating of 10W,
even colder at -20F they are recommending a 5w oil.
On the other end for the warmer (summer) temperatures;
If it's not going to exceed 50F a 30 weight oil is fine,
if the ambient (outside air)temperature is not going to exceed 80F either a 30 or 40 weight oil is good.
When your outside temperature is going to reach 100F they want a 40 weight oil.
These temperatures are the air temperatures were this unit is stored and operated.

So the heck with it all, run a synthetic 5w-40 and your covered all year.
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2017 FREIGHTLINER M2 26FT NON CDL BOX TRUCK (A43003)
2017 FREIGHTLINER...
2019 ALLMAND BROS, INC. LIGHT TOWER (A45046)
2019 ALLMAND BROS...
2006 MGS TRAILER CAT XQ45 GENERATOR (A45333)
2006 MGS TRAILER...
2023 AGT Topcat Stump Grinder (A44391)
2023 AGT Topcat...
CAT IT28 Wheel Loader Pallet Forks (A44391)
CAT IT28 Wheel...
John Deere ZTrak Pro Z830A 60in Zero Turn Mower (A42744)
John Deere ZTrak...
 
Top