Hydraulics for beginners

[Torvy]

OK, experts, here is the next in my series of questions from a beginner for beginners...

My understanding of hydraulics is relatively basic. Essentially, a fluid contained in a closed system with a pump to pressurize it. Valves and the like are controlled by levers or switches to drive or manipulate gears/levers/devices with force. There are two primary ways to measure hydraulic abilities. Pressure and flow (or volume). Pressure is measured in Pounds per square inch (PSI) or similar metric measurement. Flow is measured in gallons (or litres) per minute. I view pressure thinking of a typical garden hose. Without any attachments, the hose flows out under low pressure. If you press your thumb over the opening (or kink the hose), the water flows out at a higher pressure, but no more water actually comes out. For our purposes, pressure with make things move more quickly. Flow is more about capacity. The more flow, the more ability a hydraulic system should have to lift/dig/push. This is what I think I know. Please correct any misunderstandings.

In terms of how hydraulics are incorporated into tractors, from what I remember as a kid and what I have read tractors may have 1 to 5 (6?) output ports depending on what you buy. With an FEL, there would be 1-3? that control the lifting, dumping and/or grapple functions (these same ones are used for snow blowers?). Near the 3pt hitch you would have 1-3 ports (typically) that can be used to operate attachments/implements. Please correct misunderstandings here as well.

The question(s): Under what circumstances would I need more ports in the back? (like what types of attachments use more?) How often do you need all 3. Are there good arguments for saving the money by having fewer? Are the couplers standardized for compact tractors or do some manufacturers use proprietary connectors? Any good advice on how to maintain hydraulic systems? Should I keep backup hoses in my shop or do they fail infrequently enough that it is not worth keeping inventory? Can cracks/holes be patched or is the pressure so great that it would be pointless?

I know this topic can be huge and there are a lot of other possible concerns with separate pumps and such. We can save those for another day. Thanks again. The answers to my earlier questions have been outstanding and quite helpful.

 

[old and tired]

For me, it's better to have extra valves and not need them vs. installing fewer and needing more valves.

I plumbed a 3 spool valve after my FEL valve. For my use, I wanted Top N Tilt hydraulics to use for my 3 point hitch. (makes adjusting box blades and rear blades a snap) and one spool to run the front grapple. Thinking was if I needed a hose to angle my rear blade, I could route my grapple hose to the back. (in reality, I never needed it)

For me at the time of the install, each extra spool was like $60 more. So it didn't cost that much more.

 

[Torvy]

Thanks, I lean toward more is better, but I have to be able to make a reasonable argument for my wife. She will literally run the numbers to see if it makes sense. I cannot BS that woman.

 

[old and tired]

So it comes down to what you need your tractor to do for you... If you have the time (and energy) to manually adjust the 3 point hitch (getting off the seat and shorten or lengthening the top link/side link) when you use the 3 point hitch. You might not need T-N-T. The nice thing, if you run a box blade, you'll learn to use it more efficiently since it's so easy to make minor changes.

Same for a grapple... you can load things by hand or you can drive up to a down tree and just grab it. Now if you don't have trees, you might not need a grapple!

What do you see yourself using rear remotes for? (for the record, I think it cost $750 to add 3 remotes, myself - although, if I bought correct hydraulic hoses, I could have saved some money).

 

[oldnslo]

Torvy
In hydraulics pressure is what produces the force in a cylinder or torque in a motor while flow is speed in cylinder velocity or motor RPM

Topic of rear remotes or connections. Best answer sit down and make a list of what implements or attachments you plan on using or purchasing. Then use this list to determine how many connections each implement requires and make sure you have enough to operate the implements with most required

large farm tractors may have eight or more and use all of them at times. Little compact tractors may only require one or two.

 

[/pine]

OK, experts, here is the next in my series of questions from a beginner for beginners...

My advice is to take a pragmatic approach to how they (hydraulics) are applied to whatever labor saving machine or attachment you are engaged with...

First off I would learn the difference between open and closed center systems... although for most tractors (especially compact tractors) the latter is not a factor...
For learning about connector types and sizes, hose ends and fittings etc., etc...I would visit the link below for their free port ID, thread size and fitting guide...

https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/mm5/thread_guide.pdf

 

[Will Digg 44]

You mentioned something about keeping hoses in stock rather than buying them as needed. Hoses work much better when they are the same length as the old hose with the same type fittings.

When I blow a hose I take it off the machine and take it with me to the hydraulic shop. That way he can match it up exactly and it fits right back on the machine. Now it is nice if you have a hydraulic shop close. The one I use is about 10 or 12 miles from the house so that saves time in a pinch. Plus I trust these guys to give me what I need. I blew a hose a while back and took it to an auto parts store for a new one and this guy crimped the wrong size fittings on it. That cost me the time to get back to the job, realize the mistake, return trip back to the auto place and so on. A big pain all because he didn't pay attention to what he was doing.

 

[Torvy]

Thanks guys! This gets me back to an earlier comment on another thread...I think it makes more sense, at least for me, to figure out what implements I need and then find the best tractor fit that will accomplish all of the tasks I need or reasonably expect to do. It seems that if I get set on a tractor it may be too much or too little for my jobs.

I still have so much to learn, but I want to know as much as possible before I start purchasing anything. Fortunately, I have very little that I am legally required to maintain. The easements are technically not my problem, that is a nice to have. My 'ditches' such as they are have little or no plant life, so I can put off purchasing anything until closer to when the buildings are up (12 months or so from now).

 

[old and tired]

I would not even worry about what implements you "need". Concentrate on what you need to do to the land, Maintain gravel driveway? mow? food plots? build roads and trails? Then the implements will make themselves know. Finish mow for grass or Rough cut shredder/bush hog mower for small trees and weeds?

For me, I like a smaller tractor = was less money (or more money leftover to buy implements) = takes longer to get things done (more seat time). I'm not in a rush and since I've built my roads, trails, food plots... I mainly have a very larger lawn mower!!!

Don't get me wrong, I still use it most days I'm at the farm - but it doesn't get used that much since I've gotten most things done that I needed. Good luck shopping...

 

[Torvy]

You said it better...I skipped a step...you're right we have a good idea of what we need to do with the land, but there are some 'possible' things that may or may not get done.
The tools needed must follow the process needs. I need to put in some fence posts, but I don't know if it makes sense to buy an auger to attach to my tractor or just rent one for a day or two. I am sure I could turn it into a multi-tasker by using it for other purposes like tree planting, but I could also use other, cheaper tools to plant trees. I saw someone, I think shooterdan, mention big spreadsheets to do the math, that is exactly the type of thing I do...I have a giant one in progress right now to help me compare apples to apples and (where possible) determine if it is better to buy or rent.

 

[WranglerX]

My SCUT came with Front End Loader (FEL) and there is simple kits (3rd function) to add grapple if I want to.... But what I really wish it had was POWER BEYOND (PB) so I could run a log splitter or some other thing like control for hydraulic blade or what ever off back end of tractor... If I had to do it over if the was no PB on rear I would look for something else.... But the above comment about "what are you intensions with tractor" is more important than theoretical's on how hydraulics are equipped...

IF you are just going to do a one time fence job, rent an auger for a day or two.... Most specialty attachments seem to set there for several years between use and when you go to use it its dead and you need to spend hours bringing it back to life.... If you can not see daily or weekly or monthly use of a implement you may be better off by passing it...

What I found when I got my tractor there was a whole host of thing the made tractor use easier to use then a few big implements, like grab handle for climbing on board instead of pulling on steering wheel, small tool box behind seat, front shackle mount on chassis for chaining up and dragging really big things, chain slot/hooks on bucket to keep "things" in bucket, rear ballast box to balance tractor against extremely heavy loads in FEL, and wheel spacers to widen rear track for more stability on the off level ground...The big implements will become known by the "need" as you work more with tractor... Don't be in big rush to spend a lot of money...

 

[jjp8182]

As was previously noted identify what you need to do is the first step and then identifying the implements that could work to do the tasks.

The Messicks and Tractor Mike youtube channels contain some pretty good information regarding what features on the tractor may make sense to buy up front and what may add additional costs if/when added after the initial purchase.

When it comes to rear-remotes the most that could potentially be needed (that I've seen) would occur with rear blades that are equipped with gauge wheels and hydraulic cylinders for all functions which ends up being:
1) blade angle
2) blade tilt
3) blade offset
4) gauge wheel control

add in a top & tilt kit
5) tilt function
6) top cylinder control

...and that results in (potentially) 6 different functions that would need to be controlled.

A close second would be fully-hydraulic actuated landscape rake (wouldn't have the blade tilt function).

Though whatever the implement, 3 rear-remotes (which tends to be the highest number found on compact tractors) makes sense for a tractor when a top & tilt kit is added.

A 3rd function on the loader should almost be standard at this point since grapples have become so common. While they aren't always needed a grapple can drastically speed up doing some chores (e.g. brush clean up).

Personally I'm of the opinion that additional hydraulics can not only speed up performing certain activities, but if the tasks being done are being done in a hot (or humid) environment or involve moving several hundred pounds of material then the use of hydraulics on machines can also make things safer.

There's been more than a few tree/debris clean up tasks I've had on my own property where having to perform the task would have either take days longer (to be safe) or resulted in heatstroke had I not had a tractor with a grapple which allowed me to get done in under an hour.

Likewise a hydraulic top-link has drastically reduced the amount of time needed to perform some tasks (particularly when using a box blade or disk harrow).

 

[lennyzx11]

I put 4 on mine. Because a deal was available on a 4 spool valve with power beyond that could be had at same price as a 3 spool valve. So one more set of lines and couplers was the only added cost.

My theory at the time was
1. Top link
2. Tilt link
3. Angle box blade, landscape rake, etc.
4. I converted (easy) from a detent to constant flow in order to control a hydraulic motor type of circuit or something that had its own separate controls and needed a constant supply like a three point wood splitter or a winch.

The same thing could be done with a bungee cord though.
I wanted the capability to control the setting and a bungee cord is only on or off.

This one can be used as normal just have to return to center manually rather than spring centered like normal.
It was planned for hydraulic motors like on a phd, conveyor, flail mower, tiller, or running something on the FEL with a longer set of hoses that the diverter valve installed couldn’t run like a pole saw. Something that may run longer times but you don’t want to sit there and hold the handle.

It’s other use would be offset sideways or extension control like pushing gauge wheels back when the other three remotes were used up.

 

[Anakist]

Flow is more about capacity. The more flow, the more ability a hydraulic system should have to lift/dig/push. This is what I think I know. Please correct any misunderstandings.

Flow and pressure and related in quite a complex manner. But to keep to your garden hose analogy, more flow is like having the fancy 3/4" garden hose instead of the standard 1/2" stuff. The stream of water coming out the end still travels 3 feet from where you're standing but you have more gallons per minute (same pressure at higher flow).

Or you can have twice the length of hose and still fill a bucket in a minute (same flow at higher pressure).

As to remotes. My tractor has none. I kind of want some, but not enough to pay the hundreds of dollars for the parts and never use them because I use PTO driven attachments, or unpowered ones. I am sure if I bought a new tractor with a bunch of remotes I could find something for them to be used on though.

James

 

[old and tired]

Only other thing I'll add is that the spools/valves are the tip of the iceberg (in terms of costs) Add in the hydraulic top link, side link and a grapple and you'll have a very capable tractor that can do lots of things with ease.

 

[Williy]

We have 8 aches. I wanted a tractor with a cab as when I cut the grass on the small riding lawn mower was covered
in dust, and bugs. Need a tiller so now have one that attaches to the back of the tractor. I ordered the tractor with a cab a/c & heat, backhoe & bucket. Also ordered a brush hog so will not have a problem cutting small branches that happen to fall on the ground. The back hoe is used to remove cedar trees and misquites and removeing the stumps. If you have the money check the Yanmar YT235C for the confort and ease of use and all controls are at your finger tips I believe you will really enjoy owning one. Now make sure you test drive many different tractors so you can get the feel of what will suite you. Every body has their favorite tractor and some tractors are prone to have problems but the manufactures usually have the problems worked out. Usually what happens is their tractors are great wouldn't trade for any thing else then something brakes and they have a problem then they have the worst tractor made its junk and a lot of the problems are caused by little or no maintenance! So if you buy a tractor you want to have a manual so you can check for all the grease fittings and what needs to to checked for loose bolts etc. You are going to spend some bucks for what you get so you want to take care of it and make it last!

willy