How does one decide right vs wrong?

[PitbullMidwest]

<font color=blue>I guess this must be too juvenile of a question to bother with answering, or maybe this thread is finally coming to a long overdue demise. </font color=blue>

Your question is not juvenile at all, I suspect that your 2nd suggestion is probably correct.

I would like to email you a response since I need to use scripture to answer your question and several members have objected to this in the past. Since you don't list an email address you'll need to contact me.

 

[knucklehead]

I'll answer it right here - free will. We chose, long ago, to follow ourselves and not God. We all find the over used saying "If you love something enough, set it free; if it comes back, it's yours; if it doesn't, it never was" to be meaningful, don't we? Same deal with God, except we are all aware of the judgement following our deaths. If there's anyone out there who isn't, please speak up. There are deeper scriptural explanations, and they amplify the sovereignty of God (he draws us and enables us, etc.), but from our human perspective, it's free will.

Why does God allow evil? Because we choose evil. There's actually a little fractal science involved here, too, as stealing a pen from work produces a little bit of evil in the world (in attitudes), and it affects, over time, the development of greater evil. It's incremental, connected, and all a virtual upthrust middle finger to the God of the universe, regardless of severity of the act. But we rationalize. My pen-stealing ain't as bad as your speeding, as his lying, as her cheating on taxes, as his cheating on his wife, as her arson, as his rape, as her murder, as his genocide...........and on it goes. The pen stealer thinks everything is O.K. becaue he isn't commiting tax evasion; the rapist thinks so, because he ain't murdering anyone.

We want God to prevent evil, but only that evil we define as evil. When it doesn't happen, we conclude he isn't there. Downward spiral. No God, no absolutes.

Oops, wrong thread!

/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I don't have e-mail anymore, because a nasty little virus invaded my network here at the shop. Whew, that was a long night. Could you send a response in the form of a private message?

 

[Boone]

Hi Harv,
Love your posts.
What are your thoughts on suicide in this area of right and wrong. Especially, if you were talking to someone that is suicidal.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Hi Dan,

Don't tell Mark to go to my "fun at work" folder in "Photos" to see the forge I made and some of the blacksmithing I do. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I see suicide from a couple of different perspectives. I can see it from the perspective of those left behind.

I was almost ten when my mother's father killed his wife and himself. I got an up close and personal experience with the child left behind and who never really figures it out. My mother handled her father's death very poorly. I don't think she ever could put his death, her faith, and her place in it all together.

I've also looked at it from the perspective of a potential participant. After all I've got so many of the qualities in my life that accompany so many suicides. I have the family history, grandpa did it, I'm smart, and I'm creative.

What took it completely out of the picture for me happened about three maybe four years ago. I had went to the doc and we had discussed me maybe having a heart problem due to chest pains. He'd given me two prescriptions. One for the reason behind my visit, whatever that was. And another for some nitroglycerin pills.

He'd explained that I needed to put one of the nitro pills under my tongue the next time I had a chest pain. If the pain went away I was to haul butt to the nearest hospital asap. If I instead got a severe to unbearable headache then the chest pain had nothing to do with my heart.

It is amazing how stupid someone as smart as me can be. I walked into the pharmacy where my youngest daughter worked. Now you have to understand how I am. I'm the kind of guy who tries to live my addage about character. Some have it but I are it. I've never met a stranger and I can get away with saying the darnedest things to the doggonedest people. It's just the way it is.

So I walk into the pharmacy and immediately start harrassing the pharmacist and the other techs as I hand the prescription to my daughter. Out of the corner of my eye I catch my daughter in profile when she gets to the computer. There are tears just running down her face as her fingers work the keyboard.

Then, that moment, instantly I realized probably one of the most important lessons of life. My life isn't my own to do with as I please.

BDT (before daughter's tears) when things got low and I was in one of those moods where I'd need a stepladder to inspect whale poop I'd consider suicide. Not seriously like but still I'd think about it. And I don't necessarily think it's bad to go there if you're willing to think about it as a whole subject. One where you think not only about what you're getting away from but what you will miss.

Since then it's a door I think I've boarded over and have forgotten exactly where it is.

Tonight as I rolled into the driveway I was higher than a kite. Jalopena beans and good bar b que will do that to me. That and something that's going on that I want to share with my friends at TBN but with pictures and tomorrow evening. I'm going through one of those high high life defining events this week.

But as I came down the alley I thought about trying to explain something in a post here in this forum. It sorta ties in with your question.

If I was to wish to pass on to my loved ones what I feel are the important lessons about life I think there'd be three that would stand out from the rest.

3. Monogamy is it's own reward. You see I believe that as a human being we will fall in and out of love our whole life. The fortunate of us do it with the same person. There is a peace that comes with being loved and loving the same person over a long time. I haven't decided if the understanding that there's someone who knows you better than you know yourself and they love you anyways. Or if it's the comfort you have in knowing that it's okay and there isn't many surprises that is best.

I would wish them a monogamous relationship. I put it number three because there is the glitch of it taking two to make it work. That means there's luck involved. You can be unlucky or lucky.

2. I would hope they find work. Work is what we do. It is what we were designed for and are happiest at. The lucky of us find work that fits. I would want them to have that.

1. This one answers your question about suicide. It's what was on my mind tonight as I came down the alley.

I would want them to understand that life has ups and downs. That nothing is permanent. There is change. That is the only thing that is sure.

So when things are like they are right now for me and the world is my roller rink and I have brand new trick skates. I cherish the moment. I do this because I know it won't stay this way.

I think that's important. I think we need to be aware of the value of good moments. And when they come by we need to grab them and hold them tight because they won't be there long.

I think that makes us happy.

Of course the same thought process works for the down times. They aren't permanent. It will change. That's the way life is.

So happiness and surviving with a good attitude incorporates the understanding of reasons for joy being fleeting and enjoying it while we can. But it also means we accept the bad times and endure them because just as good times don't last long then neither do the bad ones.

It's the balance we can get when we accept that life is change. I'm not sure if it's much more than acceptance for the way things are or if it's all about appreciating and enduring as required.

I doubt if I explained it how I wanted to. But I hope I've got it close enough that it makes some kind of sense and might help.

 

[knucklehead]

<font color=blue>Then, that moment, instantly I realized probably one of the most important lessons of life. My life isn't my own to do with as I please.</font color=blue>

Keep that thought in front of you as you continue to contemplate faith. It is that realization that brings us to the Creator. Before that, it is all free will and anything goes. I can relate to the picture you paint of your daughter.

I saw your forge, smarty-pants.

 

[Boone]

So happiness and surviving with a good attitude incorporates the understanding of reasons for joy being fleeting and enjoying it while we can. But it also means we accept the bad times and endure them because just as good times don't last long then neither do the bad ones.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your response. I agree with what you wrote. I posted my dog walking story as another example of the ups and downs in life. The experiences we have in life help define who we become, so I feel even if the situation is negative I'm going to ultimately try to take away something positive.

I'll give you another example. My very religious sister in law was killed by a drunk driver. She had talked about death with my brother and believed in god. After her funeral, when I pulled into the yard I noticed a double rainbow in the sky. I didn't think anything about it other than it looked nice.

The next two days both had double rainbows in the same spot in the sky. I took pictures of those rainbows. Comparing the pictures the rainbows appeared similar over both days. It is really amazing to me, life and spirituality.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Evening Dan,

<font color=blue>It is really amazing to me, life and spirituality. </font color=blue>

I'm finding life a big enough plate to try to digest.

I've just about decided spirituality is the closet where we put things we either don't understand or don't want to understand.

Of course I'm also the guy who thinks it's all about chemicals and the way they react to each other. The reason I suspect that it's all about chemicals is chemicals are what we've found to alter it or make it even, emotions, spirituality too.

One of the hardest things for me figure out about spirituality and all that was sorta personal.

My first tour in Nam if anything happened I found myself afraid of losing my left leg. Can't explain it. It was just a fear that I reacted instinctively rolling or falling to protect the leg. Now I wasn't in combat. But we did get some mortars and there were moments when fear sorta poked me in the ribs and said "boo" in as scarey a voice as it could muster.

Each time as I was reacting there wasn't a fear of dying. There was a very real fear of losing my leg though.

Fast forward to second tour. I'm in a completely different battalion doing a different job in a different town. They sent me on a temporary assignment back to my old platoon. I get there and the second or third day a darn duece and a half rolls over and bigger than heck I got a fractured pelvis.

And what's interesting about that is for about a month that left leg was like it belonged to anyone else but me.

I'm sure glad I didn't have a fear of being neutered!

I had to work through that. Each time I'd hear about some paranormal event and I'd pooh pooh it that darn left leg thingy would come up.

I finally figured it out that it was all about odds. I'd hung myself up on an irrational fear and eventually something close enough to the fear became a reality and I hooked a sail on it and decided I was mariner at heart.

If your sister in law hadn't been killed the conversations would have been just so much talk. I'm sure you've talked about death without dying. I have. Probably even Mohammed has.

She died and it's a tragedy, death almost always is. And if she was the only person to ever talk about death and then she died then I guess we could say there was something tying the two events together besides both happening to her.

But people die everyday and they're probably just as shocked as anyone. They didn't have a premonition and never had a clue what was about to happen.

If we say that premonition is something we need to put into the mixture then we have to figure out why some have it and some don't. That's of course after we figure out why even those who sometimes have it don't have the anticipated results.

It's past my bed time. I've had a day of days. The mixer puked the first thing out of the box. I ordered the parts to fix it and jumped over to welding up what we had set. Then the welder puked and instead of working I got to drive a hundred miles home. But the mixer has been limping along. It'll be better than new within twenty minutes of the parts being in hand. The welder's fixed. I get to spend the night with my wife which is a good thing.

I'll be working out of town this weekend. Hopefully I'll get some online time Friday.

But do think about and respond to what I said about hearafter and hereafter or the lack thereof.

 

[knucklehead]

Sounds like Someone's been pulling your leg, to me, Harv.

How much harder should He tug?

/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi,

Interesting thread…not sure I read it all…tried…but…

Anyway, we all have opinions and experiences. But there are very few clean slates out there. Much, or most, of what we believe, or think, is the result of what we have been told by others, from the time we popped into the world at age zero…rather than what we have experienced ourselves.

HOW MUCH of what YOU believe, what is in YOUR head, came from personal experience, as compared to simply what you believe, as the result of someone telling you something? Faith? Faith is the admission that you are willing to believe something without personal experience of your own to prove to you that what you believe may be true.

Personally, my GUESS is that there is something absolute out there…but who can really say? If you can prove it do so, but don’t pull the concept of faith into the equation. Faith and proof are mutually exclusive.

What does your own personal experience tell you? Erase the FAITH in believing what others have said…rely on your own personal experience…how much do YOU really know?

Like me, probably as much as I have in my back pocket…and these shorts have no pockets!

Bill in Pgh, PA