How did Kioti Fix the Injection Pump Gear Problem?

[ritcheyvs]

Kioti tractors with the new stop solenoid design built between 2005 and 2008 were vulnerable to injection pump failures caused by broken gear teeth on the injection pump control sleeves. This did not occur in the earlier design that used an external stop solenoid or in later models after 2008. I would like to know what Kioti (Daedong) did to solve this problem? Is it simply a matter of tougher gears? Was the (twice) redesigned stop solenoid a factor?

I have recently replaced all of my control sleeves. Does that solve the problem permanently? Should I also replace the actual stop solenoid with the newest version? Fixing the injection pump (control sleeves) is not that hard or expensive but a broken-down tractor in the field (that cannot run even to remove the loader) is most inconvenient.

Does anyone know?

 

[Fuggley]

..... is that crickets I hear?

 

[xcgreene]

I've had my popcorn ready for this one too. Perhaps an email to a good dealer like MIE would be best suited

 

[Steve_Miller]

Just looking up part numbers on Michigan Iron's site and the stop solenoid shows an updated part number. Would be curious to find out if there is an updated solenoid that has been designed to eliminate the previous one. Would be interested to hear any info on this part as I would be willing to upgrade if it is an improvement other than waiting for it to break again. Anyone have any insight on the newer version? I bought an engine stop cable and installed it hoping I could disconnect the solenoid but the solenoid energizes to open the fuel supply and hold it open so I cant eliminate the solenoid slamming the rack open and close.

Steve

 

[VictorW]

I have a 2004 CK30hst with the older set up. My manual stop cable, factory item then, does pull the fuel lever closed. Otherwise, it's always open and the solenoid only reacts for about 5 seconds to turn off the fuel and stop the engine, going back to open. Is there any way you can have the cable completely control the fuel lever from full open to full close? I would think there is enough travel in the cable to give you what you need. I could make my cable do that if needed and just control open and closed manually. I've never seen the newer set up but think there should be a way to make that cable do what the solenoid does.

 

[MichiganIron]

From our experience, the injection pump rack issue was more related to the gears in the injection pump than the fuel shut-off solenoid. There is a "new" solenoid shown in the parts system due to an update in the wiring harness. The "newer" solenoids have a 3 pin plug, with a ground in the plug. Depending on the serial number of the tractor, if you change to the "new" solenoid, you may also need the adapter tail to use in the older 2 pin harness solenoid plug. If you had a pump rack issue, you probably have the older 2 pin solenoid plug.

Hope this helps

 

[VictorW]

From our experience, the injection pump rack issue was more related to the gears in the injection pump than the fuel shut-off solenoid. There is a "new" solenoid shown in the parts system due to an update in the wiring harness. The "newer" solenoids have a 3 pin plug, with a ground in the plug. Depending on the serial number of the tractor, if you change to the "new" solenoid, you may also need the adapter tail to use in the older 2 pin harness solenoid plug. If you had a pump rack issue, you probably have the older 2 pin solenoid plug.

Hope this helps

That's nice to know. So change the gears in the pump and all should be good instead of different solenoids or manual shut offs. Thank you.

 

[Steve_Miller]

I'm assuming from what I've read that the solenoid opens the fuel and holds it open while the key is on 'correct'? If so, now that I have installed the stop cable, can I prevent the solenoid from 'slamming' the fuel valve by:
1. pull the cable before turning the key on (prevent the valve slamming opening)
2. push cable back in then start the tractor
3. to stop the tractor pull stop cable
4. turn key off.
Would this essentially eliminate the solenoid from working the fuel valve? Not sure if the solenoid is physically connected to the valve or is just a plunger and works to close by spring action as the stop lever is spring loaded from the feel of it. I can't remember when I had it all apart how the physical connects were made.


Steve

 

[Steve_Miller]

As far as the gears being changed, how do you know that new gears (from someone other than Kioti as they don't sell just the gears) would be any better. A new assembly from Kioti is over a $1000. I'm hoping the $60 stop cable can save me that $1000 bill and the day to replace that assembly again. Last time I got lucky and got it to run long enough to get the loader off to be able to work at it more comfortably. Other than this issue the tractor has been all and more than I could have expected. It will be the last one I will own, unless I win a lottery jackpot.


Steve

 

[Steve_Miller]

Thanks MichiganIron for the reply, my dealer had know answer about the gear, solenoid question.


Steve

 

[Fuggley]

Steve, can you share with us the advice you got from your dealer?

 

[ritcheyvs]

I'm assuming from what I've read that the solenoid opens the fuel and holds it open while the key is on 'correct'? If so, now that I have installed the stop cable, can I prevent the solenoid from 'slamming' the fuel valve by:
1. pull the cable before turning the key on (prevent the valve slamming opening)
2. push cable back in then start the tractor
3. to stop the tractor pull stop cable
4. turn key off.
Would this essentially eliminate the solenoid from working the fuel valve? Not sure if the solenoid is physically connected to the valve or is just a plunger and works to close by spring action as the stop lever is spring loaded from the feel of it. I can't remember when I had it all apart how the physical connects were made.

Steve

Steve, that's not quite how the solenoid works.

The injection pump has a "rack" which is a metal bar with teeth machined into one side. The rack position controls the amount of fuel injected into each cylinder; when the rack is full forward max fuel is injected and when full aft no fuel is injected. The solenoid is spring loaded to push the rack full aft (no fuel) when electrical power to the solenoid is shut off, via the key switch. It is this violent spring action that stresses the gear teeth. There is no fuel valve, per se.

With the engine idling (typical at shutoff) the rack is already near the aft-most position so the plunger builds up a lot of speed (from the spring) before it crashes into the rack to push it the rest of the way back. It is my theory that this high-speed impact is what breaks the gear teeth. I ordered one of the new solenoids (not yet installed) to see if it had a lighter spring or perhaps damping. I don't have the old solenoid out for comparison but the new one does not seem any more gentle at first look. So I hope my new gears are the permanent fix.

If you install a manual cable all you need to do is shut off the engine via the cable before switching the key off (steps 4 and 5). For good measure you could physically remove the solenoid (and cover the hole) or cut off the solenoid plunger rod. If you remove or modify the solenoid you should probably remove the plastic "hat" that fits between the plunger and the rack.

Scott

 

[VictorW]

If my CK had that newer style of solenoid like yours, I would just disconnect it and use the cable. That's how they worked in the older days.

As far as changing gears, do a search and you'll find members who have done it. I don't remember any members saying if their IP was still working after XXX hours. After the search, you could message them and maybe find some good info about that. There was that time frame, which I believe was 2006-2008, that the IPs had gear problems then all after are apparently good.

 

[ritcheyvs]

If my CK had that newer style of solenoid like yours, I would just disconnect it and use the cable. That's how they worked in the older days.....

For the "new" design, the solenoid must be energized (retracted) or removed for the engine to run.

...As far as changing gears, do a search and you'll find members who have done it. I don't remember any members saying if their IP was still working after XXX hours. After the search, you could message them and maybe find some good info about that. ...

The sticky post at the top of this forum has a link to a table of many owners who had and solved this IP problem. I keep that table updated with information posted on this forum. The table has additional links, including parts sources and an excellent "how to" photo essay by neches. If I ever get motivated, I should rewrite that post based on what we know now.

... I believe was 2006-2008, that the IPs had gear problems then all after are apparently good.

That is correct but it is not all 2005-2008 models as the larger engines switched over to the new design (the one with the problem) earlier. The older design with the external stop solenoid and timer relay did not have the IP gear tooth breakage problem. I don't recall any problems after the 2008 build year.

 

[Steve_Miller]

Scott, thanks for the explanation, so 'key on' is not slamming the rack forward, just releasing the rack to allow throttle control. Only when shutting down is the rack slamming to shut off fuel?

Steve

P.S. Sorry for not replying sooner, four of our members from our sponsor team (HEART society) that brought them here were at the her side in the ER 5:00am that morning to try and console her as best we can.

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[ritcheyvs]

Scott, thanks for the explanation, so 'key on' is not slamming the rack forward, just releasing the rack to allow throttle control. Only when shutting down is the rack slamming to shut off fuel?...

Correct. During normal operation the rack is pushed forward by gentle spring pressure from the back end until it rests against the arm of the centrifugal governor. Then the governor arm moves the rack as required (forward or back) to maintain the RPM commanded by the throttle position. This much is the same as the old stop solenoid design. But when power to the new-style stop solenoid hold coil is cut (key off) the strong stop solenoid spring overcomes all the other springs to force the rack full aft.

 

[Steve_Miller]

Are you familiar in any way of removing any of the linkage/spring without completely removing the solenoid to disconnect this. I dont remember what that looked like when I had it all apart well over a year ago.

Thanks
Steve

 

[ritcheyvs]

Are you familiar in any way of removing any of the linkage/spring without completely removing the solenoid to disconnect this. I dont remember what that looked like when I had it all apart well over a year ago.

Thanks
Steve

No. As I recall there is no non-destructive way to open the stop solenoid.