How accurate is a property line survey?

[irwin]

The bad news is when I call another attorney, he scared me to death. He said under the law, I really have no choice but to hire an attorney either him or another attorney to defend me. The only way to challenge his survey to pay for another survey. If they keep going back and forth on discrepancies, it will cost more money. If I do nothing, the neighbor will win the case. Not only I have to take down the fence, I have to pay his attorney's fee, damages and penalties. It's going to cost a lot more that half the cost of a new block wall. It just doesn't make any sense to me...

The first sentence here jumped out to me, imagine someone who stands to make money trying to scare you into hiring him. If someone wants my business, they better give me something more than fear mongering.

Personally I think this may go away with a few short conversations, "If this is your land, then it's your fence".... or "if it's my fence then I'll have to get ownership legally of the land it's on", (via) "Adverse Possession" claim (both were suggested by other posters). As always a confident smile and a shrug of your shoulders while adding," but I'd rather have good neighbors, and be a good neighbor".

 

[Champy]

My two cents:

> If 3" doesn't really matter to you, give it up now. Make friends with the neighbor. Agree that he has every right to place his new fence on his property, and if he is willing, just let him move your fence 3" for you.

> I'd also point out to your neighbor that once he installs his new fence, any future surveys might just as easily go against him which is a much more expensive fix than your simple wooden fence posts. Can we compromise?

> I wouldn't fight over the survey being +/- accurate. Instead I'd go research the local zoning laws or covenants covering your property. You might find that your fence is considered "temporary" and can be placed on or near the property line....while a block / mortar fence is "permanent" and must have a certain amount of setback to be legal. If this is true, moving your fence to accomodate installing his is useless.....unless he just wants to be a b-head about the whole thing.

 

[MikePA]

I tried to google for an answer but didn't find anything that I can understand. What is the tolerance of a property line survery? It can't be exactly on the sport right? Is it a +/- a few inches? a foot or +/- a certain percentage of tolerance like any type of scientific measurements?

To answer your question, yes, a survey can be that accurate. It can be more accurate than 3 inches. When doing a survey, you start at a point and follow the deed around the property. The goal is to end up EXACTLY where you started. If you do, the deed 'closes'. So, yes, you can end up EXACTLY where you started. You can end up within 3" of where you started. Coming within 3" might be great accuracy in a 50 acre parcel, but not good enough in a 1/4 acre suburban subdivision parcel. You've never answered how large these parcels are.

The first step in doing a survey is to get a copy of the deed. You enter the directions and distances into a computer program and determine if the description is accurate, i.e., it closes. It's not unusual to find out the description in the deed doesn't close. Generally speaking, the older the deed, the more likely it wont' close.

The next step is to go into the field and find all the points described in the deed. Where do you start in the field? In cities, there can be brass markers in sidewalks. These are the best places to start a survey. In the suburbs, you look for concrete markers, iron pipes, rebar, or other landmarks. These markers can be on the property being surveyed, on adjoining properties, in the street, etc. The more permanent, the better. In the country, such markers can be hard to find, if they are there at all. Sometimes the deed says something like, "Starting from a point in the middle of Brown Street, 54' 3" from...". The key is to start from an accurate point. Sometimes you find good points to start from, sometime you don't. Sometimes when you do find points, they can be farther apart than the deed indicates or closer. So what is correct? What happens if the deed doesn't close and the measurements taken in the field don't close. Which is right?

In such cases, the surveyor can pull deeds from adjoining properties. Depending upon how many adjoining properties there are, the date of the deed, the last time a survey was done, etc. this can take a long time, and you pay for it. Oh, this dispute will go to court, now the surveyor has to be able to document and justify why he chose to believe the deed of one adjoining deed instead of another.

That's why a survey can cost a lot or a little. Unless we knew where the parcel was located, we could only quote a range for the cost of a survey. Cities, suburbs, subdivisions and small parcels were less expensive to survey than large parcels in the country.

 

[zeuspaul]

The neighbor can build a wall on his property if he wants to. He could take a chance and take down *his* fence and risk being sued. The surveyor would probably have to foot the bill if the fence were taken down due to an error in his survey.

As Mike said *measurements* can be very accurate. Certainly less than an inch. It's the interpretation of the deeds and found monuments that results in differences. Two surveyors may disagree on the value of a particular monument.

Survey GPS is very very accurate because surveyors use Differential GPS (two GPS units. One on a known point which measures the error on the known point and applies that error to the point being measured.)

I would talk to the neighbor and tell him you will remove the fence when he wants to build his wall on his property including keeping the foundation on his property. Tell him you will then have the wall surveyed at your expense just to make sure the wall is in the right place before you put the fence back on your property.

If you let him take down the fence he may destroy it. If it is indeed on his property I would assume it is his. You may have a claim to the fence but it is not worth the time and money to find out.

Zeuspaul.

 

[ihookem]

You might want to know the surveyers name and state lisence #. Look to see if it is surveyed with a pipe with the date and license # For all you know anyone could put a stick in the ground, make sure it's a real survey. I helped build a garage once and it had to be no less than 36" from the lot line. The neighbors were enemies so the neighbor had it surveyed and the surveyer said it was 2'11 63/64". We tried to talk the surveyer to just say it was 36" exactly but he wouldn't. It was literally a pencil line too close to the lot line. So yes if this guy had a real surveyer do this it's for real. In Wisconsin it takes 25 years to claim adverse possesion. I have a driveway that starts on the corner of another guys property way up north. I'm sure I'm on his land by about 10'. My neighbor does not like the fact that I put a gate up to close the drive way due to trespassers. He wanted a key for my gate so I said I keep one in the outhouse. It's been 10 years now since I put up the gate so he can make me take down the gate, and I think he thinks he can stop me from driving across his land, I have no easement but the problem for him is the driveway has been there since the 30's and I and the owner before me has been maintaining it so I'm sure I now have the right to the easement without a legal easement. I think your fence is the same thing. I had another property surveyed and flags were put on the proper line by a state licensed sureveyer. Next thing you know the neighbor had pulled the flags and threw them on our land. These things can sure make enemies out of real nice people so be carefull and always keep a cool head ok. In Wisconsin this wouldn't go before a jury, it would go before a judge that's called "calming of the courts"? I think. A judge decides and it can go either way but you have the advantage, just keep you cool at all times.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

To answer your question, yes, a survey can be that accurate. It can be more accurate than 3 inches. When doing a survey, you start at a point and follow the deed around the property. The goal is to end up EXACTLY where you started. If you do, the deed 'closes'. So, yes, you can end up EXACTLY where you started. You can end up within 3" of where you started. Coming within 3" might be great accuracy in a 50 acre parcel, but not good enough in a 1/4 acre suburban subdivision parcel. You've never answered how large these parcels are.

The first step in doing a survey is to get a copy of the deed. You enter the directions and distances into a computer program and determine if the description is accurate, i.e., it closes. It's not unusual to find out the description in the deed doesn't close. Generally speaking, the older the deed, the more likely it wont' close.

New surveys can be wrong.

I entered a recent 3 1/2 acre lot survey into my CAD lately, and found it didn't close by over 2'. I rechecked all the numbers, apparently must have been a typo on the survey or something was wrong.
Another one I did a couple nights ago closed within a fraction of an inch. line lengths were recorded to the nearest hundreth of a foot so it will never be absolutely perfect.

I had a neighbor build a fence once, he didn't even look for the corners, just had a fence company come and put it up. I was curious and started digging around in the lawn for the corner stakes, and finally found them. fortunately his fence was put in his yard, about 1' from the line in the back, about 3' from the line in the front. I never did find one of my back stakes, it should have been located right under another neighbors 30' pine tree. they had a fence around their yard (was there when I bought the house) that apparently cut across the corner of my lot. I never brought it up and it was that way when I sold the house.

When I was building by current house, my excavator took out one of my property corner stakes by mistake. The original surveyor reset it for $300 which I thought was reasonable. My excavator's rates were also reasonable, so I didn't even bring it up to him to pay for his mistake.

 

[Charlesaf3]

Tractor, sounds like you are pissed about how the neighborhood is changing. And may well have conveyed that to your neighbor.

But whatever, I'm hard pressed to see how the current situation is improving your life.

And the choice isn't "yes" or a mean NO. It could be "Oh, thank you for asking, but I don't have the money for that" or "thanks so much, but I really like the look of the current fence"

Simple facts - your approach didn't make your life any easier, did it?

 

[DocHeb]

No matter how much you feel you are in the right, you must read the thread: Help! I need legal advice re: easements. It covers the five-and-one-half year saga of a man with a problem easement. It will take a long time to read, but the outcome, as describe from most people's comments, is truly nauseating. Must reading for those who are thinking of fighting with neighbors.

 

[CurlyDave]

The big problem I see that Tractor888 has is that if he is sued, a common outcome of this type of suit is that the parties are ordered to share the cost of a fence on some court-determined property line.

In this instance the 3" just isn't worth fighting over, but if his neighbor has a lawyer and he doesn't he may very well be forced to share the cost of a new masonry fence, when a simple wooden one would do just fine.

 

[Western]

I agree with the posters that recommend you get a survey.
You will need the documentation if you do go to court, you will want to know exactly what "proof" you have, and you will know if other issues will arise on the other 3 sides of your property. If your survey comes out with you in the good, then you can show your nieghbor and maybe work out a compromise. If not it would be cheaper and easier to just move the fence.

Our newest nieghbor had a survey done prior to his purchase. I met the surveyers prior to meeting the nieghbor and they found the same thin my surveyers found, the seperating fence line was actually on my property about 3' on one end, all I have done is let the new nieghbor know but currently I have know intentions of moving a 1500' fence.

Funniest part. When I met my new nieghbor he was on the nieghbors place that ajoins us both in the back, putting in corner post about 10' past his fence! I ask him if he bought that extra 10' x 500', he said no! he was working off the surveyers stakes and the fence was all wrong. These were surveyer referance stakes that were scattered on all 4 of his property lines from his survey...

 

[Paddy]

Mike,

Surveys can be accurate but descriptions can be way wrong. Or better yet, over lap with adjoining lands. I have a friend that had an issue. There was a 30' overlap forming a triangle. My friend's land was previously owned by the county surveyor! No mater how far back they dug, they could never find the source.

The classic point of contension is on old property. Ol' grandad had 40 ac and kept giving 5ac to each of his grand kids. By the end all the pc don't "add up" to the 40. Last grand kid has some over lap with the neibor.

I had my land surveyed a few months back after owning it for 25 years to sell. I gained 15' by 660' !! Nearly 1/4 of an ac. I was selling the land for $7500 an ac so it paid for the survey.

Patrick T

 

[Tig]

Our county has a "fence arbitrator" he can be called in to decide what kind of fence is erected, where it goes and who pays for what. You may want to check your bylaws to see if anysuch thing exists.
Also the advice of checking bylaws to see what the rules are for stone fences is very good. There may be a setback that does not allow a stone wall within 3" of the property line.
This isn't survey advice but it is stuff that can be done for free. I hope it helps.

 

[swines]

Survey GPS is very very accurate because surveyors use Differential GPS (two GPS units. One on a known point which measures the error on the known point and applies that error to the point being measured.)
Zeuspaul.

Surveying with GPS may be accurate to plus or minus two centimeters. However, like any piece of equipment, it is subject to operator error or operator precision.

Differential GPS relies on a base station setup on a fixed (surveyed) point. It compares the known point programmed into it, to the location it is calculating from satellite information. It sends a correction factor to the mobile field survey unit so that the positional error is nulled out in the recorded GPS data.

Location errors come from the number of satellites available and atmospheric conditions that cause propagation delays in the satellite signals. The maximum number of satellites available (if you could see from horizon to horizon) is 11. But, in many cases, for periods of up to 10 minutes, there may be only 4 available. You need a minumum of 3 to establish location, and 4 will give you an indication of altitude. But, until you get to about 6 satellites you cannot consider the data to be accurate.

Many times the survey crew will not look at the satellite calendar to see how many satellites are available when surveying. They just take the antenna, place it over the point to be surveyed and (hopefully) hold it plumb (more about that later). Low satellite count can affect accuracy.

Precision also depends upon the accuracy of the base station location survey point; and then there are some factors that come into play that seem innocuous, but can greatly affect the accuracy. For example, the real location point for the base station (or field survey unit) is the antenna.

For the base station, let's assume that the surveyor took the time to drop a plumb bob from the bottom of the antenna tripod to the center of an accurately surveyed monument. Sounds about as accurate as could be expected.

However, let's also assume he did not take the time to level the antenna (or hold the field antenna plumb). There will be an error in the location as the actual antenna location, when a point is projected through the center of the antenna to the ground, will show the antenna to be displaced by the height of the antenna from the ground and angular tilt. This can easily give a positional error of 2-3 inches - or more if the both the base station antenna and field unit antenna are tilted when locations are being read.

There are other considerations like how many places can be programmed into the base station (degrees, minutes, seconds, etc. or decimal degrees - and to what place) that will affect accuracy. You cannot interpolate more accurate data than what is being generated by the base station, it's location, and how it has been programmed.

Lastly, if the surveyor is using a differential service (delivered via phone, satellite, etc.) instead of his own base station, there are a number of other potential sources of data errors if those sources are not take into account.

While GPS sounds like it's totally foolproof, it is no more accurate than the person operating it.

 

[AMR]

wow, this take me back, I am a civil engineer and took surveying in college, I work a lot with survey firms doing developments, buildings, etc., I am no expert but:

Generally, here in CT the A-2 survey is the standard survey for property lines, its level of accuracy is 1 in 5,000, or 1' in 5,000', in actual practice a typical traverse will close at 1 in 35,000 and frequently 1 in 75,000

When I was building on 9 acres here in CT the neighbor called up the town to say that I over excavated on his land, the town never even called me, they just went out and surveyed themselves and solved the issue with the neighbor

 

[zeuspaul]

For the base station, let's assume that the surveyor took the time to drop a plumb bob from the bottom of the antenna tripod to the center of an accurately surveyed monument. Sounds about as accurate as could be expected.

For a property survey let's hope he did a lot better than that!

Optical plummets are now generally used by surveyors. They are more accurate than plumb bobs. Hopefully two base stations are used on two known points and hopefully the rovers are also set on tripods and plumbed the same way.

We would also hope the data is returned to the office for post processing with closures less than a centimeter.

Zeuspaul

 

[WTA]

Sometime soon, I will be in a fight with a neighbor and it's going to be ugly.
The land in question was homesteaded over a hundred years ago by my family and is now going to me in the near future. I've caught one neighbor fencing off and using about 20 or 30 acres of it before and told him to get out. Even took his fence out and moved it once. He's a moron. That old place has been nothing but problems with neighbors in the past from them vandalizing and burning things to using our land. The worst problem is since it's not in my name yet and my mother won't listen to me about the neighbor then it will probably end up in court with him claiming he's been using it for years so it must be his by the time I am able to take action.

Here, our property line had pecan trees planted just inches inside it about 25 years ago. Now they are a few inches over the line and I need to put up a boundary fence there. I have a good relationship with this neighbor I guess and his land is in CRP so I was thinking about offering to buy a couple feet of that side of his property from him. Maybe 2 feet wide by 1000 feet long. That should cover us in case something happens to him and a developer gets it in the future. I just hope he will sell it to us. Those pecan trees are part of my income every year. I'd hate to have to cut them all down and replant.

I thought about putting T posts and high tension wire there, like I did all the pastures, then just wrapping the wires around his side of the trees but that sure will look funny. It will keep the neighboring livestock out though. One thing that really sucks about having the nicest pastures in the area is that everyone elses cows and horses are constantly breaking out of their properties to come over here and eat. I caught a sick horse in with mine a couple days ago from a guy about a mile up the road. I had to call the sheriff to get it. The owner better hope mine don't get sick now.

Oh, speaking of surveys being wrong. Have any of you ever seen one with antiquated old measurements? Cubits and such. Also things saying stuff like go dead North from the forked oak tree with a bullet hole in the left fork to the large moon shaped stone placed 12 inches NE of the burned our cedar tree. That's what we have to deal with on the old farm. There are steel post markers there now also but the deed was still worded just like original last time I saw it.
We had a 400 acre place in Pa that was the same way but had a very irregular property line so it was several pages of things I didn't understand.

I'm glad our place here is a simple square mostly and is marked clearly.

 

[swines]

For a property survey let's hope he did a lot better than that!

Optical plummets are now generally used by surveyors. They are more accurate than plumb bobs. Hopefully two base stations are used on two known points and hopefully the rovers are also set on tripods and plumbed the same way.

We would also hope the data is returned to the office for post processing with closures less than a centimeter.

Zeuspaul

I understand all of that - I was using a worst case scenario to illustrate what could happen; and how GPS surveying is not just setting up the equipment and taking readings. (It's not automatically accurate just because it uses GPS.)

I had a Trimble base station and kinematic receiver on a prototype land mine detection vehicle, and had to do all of the GPS work for that system - we used a 3-axis, inertial guidance system built from three fiber optic ring gyros to null out tilt and azimuth movement induced position errors as it was being driven.

And yes, I had an optical plummet to setup my base station....

 

[CurlyDave]

I've caught one neighbor fencing off and using about 20 or 30 acres of it before and told him to get out.

I hope you told him in writing. Unless you have a copy of a letter you sent, he will claim he was never told anything. If you persistently keep telling him, in writing, to not use your land and maybe get a lawyer to write a letter or two for you, your defense against an adverse possession claim will be much stronger.

 

[RobJ]

The big problem I see that Tractor888 has is that if he is sued, a common outcome of this type of suit is that the parties are ordered to share the cost of a fence on some court-determined property line.

I can't believe this. Even in a residential subdivision fences are optional and are put up for privacy only. some of our neighbors have no fence and don't have to go in halves. I'm not a rancher but I believe in Texas if I want to keep YOUR cows out of MY property...I have to put up a fence. Cows have rights you know!! I remember this because it's arse backwards.

Only case I've seen otherwise is the bordering fences to a street or the neighborhood boundary. Then in most cases the civic assoc or the neighborhood as a whole bears the cost. This of course would be in the deed restrictions.

 

[chadincolo]

I can't believe this. Even in a residential subdivision fences are optional and are put up for privacy only. some of our neighbors have no fence and don't have to go in halves. I'm not a rancher but I believe in Texas if I want to keep YOUR cows out of MY property...I have to put up a fence. Cows have rights you know!! I remember this because it's arse backwards.

Only case I've seen otherwise is the bordering fences to a street or the neighborhood boundary. Then in most cases the civic assoc or the neighborhood as a whole bears the cost. This of course would be in the deed restrictions.

Yep, most western states are free range states. It's your duty as a landowner to keep animals off your property if you don't want them. If you are driving down the road here in Colorado and hit a cow, you owe the owner the cost of the cow and you are responsible for your damages...no arguement, no question of why the cow was there. The State puts in and maintains (officially, courtesy is that if you have cows along the highway, you take care of the fence along the highway) all fences along all state and interstate highways to keep cows off the highways.

Fencing and property lines are VERY MUCH dependant on where you live. Here, it's common curteousy to maintain the fence on your right as you leave your property, but not a requirement. You would never think of putting a fence just inside your property line. The fences are the property line.

There are no "bylaws" or fencing boards or township governments for the area as some said there is in their area. A township here is 36 square miles that has one section that was orginally deeded to the local school, nothing more, no board or governing body, and may only have 2-3 landowners in that area...much different rules and common sense apply than areas where a square mile may have 30-50 landowners...