help-no water

[Freds]

I need some help from those familiar with well pumps and wells. I know just enough to hook a pump and pressure tank up, but not how to troubleshoot.

No water this morning in the house. I went downstairs, where my pump and tank are located, and there was no pressure reading on the tank's guage and the pump was running. I turned off the breaker and felt the motor and it wasn't hot, so I don't think it had been running for long.

When I moved in a few years ago I put a new pump and lifetime tank in. In hindsight I wish I had installed a checkvalve on the inlet side of the pump because I had a hard time priming the tank, but it was my first time, too.
I saw no wet areas on the ground outisde (or in the house for that matter) and it was relatively warmer yesterday... in the upper twenties, so I don't think the plastic line would have frozen or broke.
My business, which is on the same well, but has its own system, still has water, so something (broken line?) made me lose the pressure or prime or both in the house.

I hope I've given enough info to go on. I have no idea how to trouble shoot this situation or what I should do next. I was thinking whatever it is will include a checkvalve, since now would be a good time to do any plumbing changes.

Thanks in advance!

Fred

 

[Egon]

Fred:

Question - is it a shallow well or jet pump set up.

Check for surface leaks at fittings first as that's easiest.

Then try and prime the pump. There should be a plug on the pump that you pour water in. Using a funnel helps. Fill it up and try the pump. Put your hand over the priming opening and let air escape. If the pump picks up suction put more pressure on with your hand and continue pumping for 10 -15 seconds making sure the pressure remains. Then put the plug back in and try the pump. This procedure may have to be tried several times. If no luck it's time to pull the downhole pipe to check for leaks and proper footvalve operation.

For these systems the only check valve required is downhole at the water inlet to the piping.

Also check and see how deep the lines are set in relation to the water level.

Is there any chance of freezing??

Egon

 

[Freds]

Thanks for starting me off, Egon.

What's a surface leak? I don't see any water where I can see the pipes. Do you mean the surface of the water in the well, like if the casing is cracked?

Don't know the difference between the two wells you mention. The well is about 10 ft deep with 5 ft of water that's always been at that level when I've looked. Even during drought. I haven't had the cover off since I'm assuming because I have water in my kennel, there's water in the well. The house and kennel have their own inlet lines and are a separate system. The plumber put a check valve on the kennel's pump because he had such a hard time getting it to prime because of the length. I thought it would help the house out, too.

Do you prime the pump with it running? I think this is what I did before, but it took a while. Water came gushing out of the plug and that's when I put the plug in and it's been working til today. You say to use your hand to plug the hole and create suction THEN put the plug in and try the pump? Not sure what you mean... I have no way to turn the pump off except at the panel. Do I need a second person?

Not sure what the inlet pipe looks like or if there is a check valve on it. How do you tell if it's under water? Footvalve? How do I pull the pipe out?

Sorry for not understanding you better. A plumber I'm not, but I have the feeling I'll understand a lot more after this is all said and done...

Is it possible to lose the prime for no reason?

 

[ByronBob]

Egon has some good points. It sounds like your pump being located in the basement means it's a shallow well pump. You have 2 lines going into the well. 1 puts water pressure down the system to help the other one draw water up into your house. You've lost your prime somehow and there's not enough lift to get water in.

Is your system in the business the exact same style?

You should have a foot valve in the bottom of the well which keeps the water in the line so you don't loose prime. To pull this up is a pain so let's do some other things first as Egon mentions.

Prime as Egon says. Fill the line and see if you can get water pressure to catch again. Are you sure the lines are deep in the ground so freezing isn't an issue? Even in PA you should be 3-4 feet down. I'm 4 in NY.

Do you know how the lines are set up in the well. Each should have a pittman valve to get the lines through the well casing into the well bottom. Your lines don't share a common line do they? In other words you don't have just 1 line going to the bottom right.

Are the lines plastic or metal. I kept loosing prime on my system because the lines were metal and they got a leak in the ground which meant replacing the lines in the ground. Again not fun.

If you have plastic and the lines aren't frozen and the system won't prime then your foot valve is probably shot. This will require you to pull the lines up from the well and replace the foot valve.

Let us know whats up.

 

[ByronBob]

The easiest thing to do is fill the line with the pump off until it's full then put the plug back in and fire it up.

You don't loose prime unless somethings up.

Only 5 feet to your house it might not have a footvalve but it sure would make things a lot easier to work for you. To pull the line up will require a threaded fitting going into the top of the pittman valve. If you've never done it before it can be difficult.

I can be reached at byohon@genprec.com if you want a more immediate response from me if I can help you better.

 

[Freds]

I have one line from each of the systems (business and house) going into the well. They elbow down, but I can't see the bottom of the pipe to know if anything is on the bottom (footvalve). I can see the bottom of the well, though.
Referring to the house, since that's where the problem is, The pipe coming through the cellar wall is plastic, the pipe inside the well is plastic, but there is a rusty corroded elbow where it comes through the casing and turns down. I'm guessing that is metal, but I don't know why I would have plastic pipe on either side of it if it is.... I didn't want to bang on it, but I doubt my water could get worse as there is a dead mouse floating in the well with a small white shrimp looking thing feeding off it (insert vomitting emoticon here). I guess I should hunt up a new cover, too.

I suppose something could be frozen, but why today and not in the previous years when it's been colder?

I think I could be losing the prime if there is a leak in that rusty elbow since it is above the water surface, but I'm not sure I can reach it to examine it closer other than putting a crowbar down there and banging on it.

I think first thing is to get that mouse out of there and get a water sample into town so I know how bad the water is. I may be getting into plumber's work, since I really don't know how to get to the pipe yet...

 

[Egon]

Fred:

Sounds like a shallow well of the cistern type. The pump will also be a shallow well type with the footvalve on the bottom of the suction line as has been stated.

You are right on track getting the well water tested.

very doubtfull you have pitless adapter. That is why the rusty elbow is there. The other pump should also have a 90 degree elbow in it's line.

If the well is large enough you should be able to put a ladder down, cut out the metal 90 degree elbow and pull out the suction line. Replace the elbow with one made of plastic. Put on a new foot valve. Then try and prime it and start it up.

When putting clamps on the plastic pipe it helps to warm the pipe with a small torch just before tightening clamps. Always double clamp.

Now one thing to do first is to pour water into the priming plug and check to see how much it takes. This may allow you to tell if the line is frozen. Another alternative is to disconnect the suction line at the pump and pour in water. You could also try and runn a garden hoze down the pipe to check for frozen area.

A bottle of bleach down the well will aid in killing little bugs in it. I don't know how much and how many times the bleach shock treatment should be repeated but have water tested again before using.

NOTE: NOTE:

The well will be considered an enclosed space and may lack oxygen or harbour harmfull gasses.

If going down the well at least two very strong capable people should be at the surface. You should be wearing a full safety harness [ not the belt type ] with lots of rope attached so that you can be extracted if overcome by gass or lack of oxygen.

Good luck: It's a bummer having a bum well system in cold weather. You have my sympathy.

keep smilling; it'll make a bad scene tolerable.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Freds]

I've already got the clorox into the water lines in the kennel, hopefully all goes well with flushing it out tomorrow, but I have a pretty good well.

I hadn't thought about putting a ladder down the well... In the meantime I called the plumber that did my kennel septic and he said I may have to trench the outside of the well to get to that elbow. He said there is probably a section of metal pipe extending into the ground a ways before it turns to plastic and the whole thing should be replaced. He's sending someone in my area out this afternoon to check it. If it looks like any digging needs done I'll just have him do it. I'm pretty sure he won't charge me what it would cost to justify a backhoe, but here's yet another reason to possibly have one...

I'm also picking up some rubber, drawbands and a REAL well cover this afternoon. I'll make my own fernco type gasket and that should keep the spiders and mice out in the future. There's a couple chips in the tile at the top, so I'll wrap the 1/4" rubber around the outside and let it stick up 1/2" or so so the lid compresses it.

I'll let y'all know what happened.
Thanks a lot!

 

[Freds]

So many times you see someone ask for advice or present a problem and never hear back from them as to the outcome, so I thought I'd update my post.
The plumbers came yesterday with a Bobcat mini-excavator, or track-hoe as I've seen it referred to, and trenched the area where the pipe goes through the casing to the well. For as cold as it's been I was surprised that the bucket cut through the ground like butter. I gotta get me one of those. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The whole elbow, which was metal, was corroded and falling apart so that's why I lost my prime. It was a little more than just cracked. Now I also know what a footvalve is and what a pitless adapter is. Slick setup.

As to the mouse and company, I was surprised to hear that there were no unusual levels of bacteria. It surprised the lab people, too. I guess he was a clean mouse /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
At any rate, I put some strips of 1/4" thick neoprene around the outside of the well casing and held them about 1/4" high with a drawband so when the new lid I had gotten was placed on top, it would compress the rubber and no more critters could go for a swim. I rigged the concrete lid (170 lbs I was told) with chains to my FEL and it suspended itself nice and level for easy placement without having to slide it on the neoprene gasket. Made for a nice tight seal, like I should have had in the first place.

You know, you don't miss running water when you're camping, but you sure do when you're at home and don't have any.

 

[turnkey4099]

Sounds like you have it all dialed in not. I only have one concern. You do need to allow -some- air into the well. It sounds like you have done everything you can to hermetically seal it. Under heavy water use the water level drops and air must replace the volume. Taken far enough your well will be operating at an artificially high enough altitude that it will again loose prime. May not be much of a concern as roughness in the lid will still probably allow enough ventilation.

Harry K