RoyJackson
Rest in Peace
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2001
- Messages
- 24,646
- Location
- Bethel, Vermont
- Tractor
- John Deere 4052R Cab,, Deere 855D UTV, Z920A Zero Turn Mower and assorted implements
Help me convert my chipper to 3pt
- Thread starter arrabil
- Start date
- Views: 6031
beenthere
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2001
- Messages
- 18,612
- Location
- Southern Wisconsin, USA
- Tractor
- JD_4x2_Gator, JD_4300, JD_425, JD_455 AWS, added JD_455, JD_110, JD_X485(sold)
I'd belt the front connection to a shaft running to the rear, rather than double the gear boxes. But don't know what side pressure the mid PTO stub will take. And pretty fast for chain and sprockets.
Like someone mentioned....go get the PTO model
Right, not as much fun as doing a remake yourself.
BHD
Veteran Member
A caution about shear bolts,
If one is going to use a shear bolt, one needs to make the mechanism such that if the bolt does shear, the PTO shaft can not come loose and fly around a few times then loose the telescoping section of the PTO shaft, and then continue to beat the frame or draw bar with the end on the tractor, as you will be on the wrong side, of the machine to even get to kill the tractor,
so some type of C ring or some thing to keep the mechanism together if the bolt shears, (as normally it is some type of pipe over a shaft arrangement with the bolt threw it),
(my opinion is if the machine was designed to operate at 3400 RPM I would try to keep it there),
If one is going to use a shear bolt, one needs to make the mechanism such that if the bolt does shear, the PTO shaft can not come loose and fly around a few times then loose the telescoping section of the PTO shaft, and then continue to beat the frame or draw bar with the end on the tractor, as you will be on the wrong side, of the machine to even get to kill the tractor,
so some type of C ring or some thing to keep the mechanism together if the bolt shears, (as normally it is some type of pipe over a shaft arrangement with the bolt threw it),
(my opinion is if the machine was designed to operate at 3400 RPM I would try to keep it there),
Beenthere, its not so much that this is fun... a PTO chipper is $2K. I'm hoping to convert this one for about $250 and then sell the 10HP engine (figuring its worth about $250).
BHD, I was planning a pipe over shaft design for the shear bolt. And not on the driveshaft connection but something past it. So that the driveshaft can't do what you're describing.
I've actually been looking at the sprockets at Surplus Center. Sprockets and chain, a slip clutch, and a shear bolt is looking really good right now. The sprockets are cheap and smaller than the equivalent belt pulleys. I'd need a 12" pulley and a 2" at the minimum and as mentioned before, I agree a 2" pulley is of questionable effectiveness. But a 72 tooth sprocket is less than 9" diameter and a 12 tooth is 1.6". And the whole getup is really cheap.
BHD, I was planning a pipe over shaft design for the shear bolt. And not on the driveshaft connection but something past it. So that the driveshaft can't do what you're describing.
I've actually been looking at the sprockets at Surplus Center. Sprockets and chain, a slip clutch, and a shear bolt is looking really good right now. The sprockets are cheap and smaller than the equivalent belt pulleys. I'd need a 12" pulley and a 2" at the minimum and as mentioned before, I agree a 2" pulley is of questionable effectiveness. But a 72 tooth sprocket is less than 9" diameter and a 12 tooth is 1.6". And the whole getup is really cheap.
deerhunterf350
Gold Member
To ensure that the Slip Clutch is not tightened after you have made your final adjustment. Simply buy a PAINT MARKER, and mark across the Bolt Threads and up the side of the Bolt.
Then when you need to loosen the Bolts to "Slip" the clutch , after it has sat and possible rusted/seized up, before using it next. You will have the previous mark to quickly go back to the proper setting, then remark with a fresh mark.
Just a thought to keep from tack welding the threads. After all you may decide to remove the slip clutch and install on another implement if the Shredder sits for awhile with no activity. It will have "Clean" threads for adjustment to a lighter setting if needed.
Dan
Then when you need to loosen the Bolts to "Slip" the clutch , after it has sat and possible rusted/seized up, before using it next. You will have the previous mark to quickly go back to the proper setting, then remark with a fresh mark.
Just a thought to keep from tack welding the threads. After all you may decide to remove the slip clutch and install on another implement if the Shredder sits for awhile with no activity. It will have "Clean" threads for adjustment to a lighter setting if needed.
Dan
BHD
Veteran Member
I was going to suggest using 60 chain, and in lower speed applications it would be much stronger, or capable of handling more horsepower, but. see below,
I just looked up some roller chain HP ratings, and you have a problem regardless, and that is the speed of the small sprocket,
60 chain,
http://hitmax.com/idc/groups/hitmaxco/documents/supportingdocumentpdf/poc_005719.pdf
35 chain, http://hitmax.com/idc/groups/hitmaxco/documents/supportingdocumentpdf/poc_005716.pdf
OK you take the 3400 rpm rotor speed, and your 12 tooth sprocket,
the chain would need either an oil bath for the 35, and spray lubricated for the 60,
and 35 would only, 2.17 hp rating at that speed and sprocket,
and the 60 is only 2.17 hp, being it is heaver and the bends are greater being a larger pitch, so 60 would not be a good idea,needing the spray lubrications,
but to make it handle the possible 20 hp one would need at least 8 to 10 strands, of the 35 chain running in an oil bath,
another site that say much the same,
http://www.americanchainassn.org/acahpr122001R1.pdf
I think the belts may be the cheaper way to go, if you want things to last some time,
I just looked up some roller chain HP ratings, and you have a problem regardless, and that is the speed of the small sprocket,
60 chain,
http://hitmax.com/idc/groups/hitmaxco/documents/supportingdocumentpdf/poc_005719.pdf
35 chain, http://hitmax.com/idc/groups/hitmaxco/documents/supportingdocumentpdf/poc_005716.pdf
OK you take the 3400 rpm rotor speed, and your 12 tooth sprocket,
the chain would need either an oil bath for the 35, and spray lubricated for the 60,
and 35 would only, 2.17 hp rating at that speed and sprocket,
and the 60 is only 2.17 hp, being it is heaver and the bends are greater being a larger pitch, so 60 would not be a good idea,needing the spray lubrications,
but to make it handle the possible 20 hp one would need at least 8 to 10 strands, of the 35 chain running in an oil bath,
another site that say much the same,
http://www.americanchainassn.org/acahpr122001R1.pdf
I think the belts may be the cheaper way to go, if you want things to last some time,
BHD
Veteran Member
my suggestion,
Surplus Center - 18.75 O.D. H-BUSHING DOUBLE GROOVE PULLEY
and
Surplus Center - 3.15 O.D. 3/4 BORE 2 GROOVE PULLEY
and the appropriate bushing for the larger pulley, either a additional spring loaded tightener, or one of the shafts adjustable for belt tightener,
still pushing some HP limits and speed limits, with B belts, A will work better for the speed but still less HP, http://www.martinsprocket.com/2001/SecD.pdf
Surplus Center - 18.75 O.D. H-BUSHING DOUBLE GROOVE PULLEY
and
Surplus Center - 3.15 O.D. 3/4 BORE 2 GROOVE PULLEY
and the appropriate bushing for the larger pulley, either a additional spring loaded tightener, or one of the shafts adjustable for belt tightener,
still pushing some HP limits and speed limits, with B belts, A will work better for the speed but still less HP, http://www.martinsprocket.com/2001/SecD.pdf
So what about this setup:
drive shaft connected to: 9.75 pulley
9.75 pulley belt connected to: 2.95 pulley
2.95 pulley on same shaft as: 6.25 pulley
6.25 pulley belt connected to: 2.95 pulley
2.95 pulley drives the chipper
BHD, you still think I need two groove pulleys with a four pulley/two belt setup?
drive shaft connected to: 9.75 pulley
9.75 pulley belt connected to: 2.95 pulley
2.95 pulley on same shaft as: 6.25 pulley
6.25 pulley belt connected to: 2.95 pulley
2.95 pulley drives the chipper
BHD, you still think I need two groove pulleys with a four pulley/two belt setup?
BHD
Veteran Member
Yes I do,
I would move the pulley to the side and trailer mount it, rather than use a double reduction system, IF it was me, or at least chain drive the first reduction if your going to go double reduction,
No I am not an engineer, and I may be full of *****, but I have built and modified and reconstructions and farmed since the mid 1970's, and have replaced many chain drives as part of maintenance on combines and farm machinery, and have learned that chains if over worked stretch a lot and wear fast, and V belts really have problems if over loaded, If working in there work range they will last for many many many years, and need little attention,
and IF I remember the chart correctly about 6 to 7 Hp is all the "B" belt could transfer and it may have been less than that, your small pulley is part of the problem, as there is only so much surface area, "grip area" and then the speed has a heat effect on things as well,
I know if you change this over you want to do it one time and as right as one can do it, the first time, In my past experience I have found in many instances, is to learn from what other manufactures have done to make there machines work, and some one posted the PDF of the wood machine, and it may be heavier and made for more HP, but I would copy there drive system, as my guess is they have tested and tried a number of methods to make it reliable and cost effective,
This is my opinion, but if I was doing this for me I would go with a double belt system and use the 18" and the 3" and most likely the spring loaded idler, as it it will give and absorb sock better than the slider system on the tighing of the belts, (my old combine has a idler tighter on most of the drives that can have shock loads, I would think that John Deere knows some thing, the cylinder, the feeder house, and some of the other drives, drives that do not have shock loads are many times just a tightener),
you do what you want to do, I have given you what I think I would do if given the same situation, and if I understand correctly what you want to accomplish,
GOOD luck on the project,
on the double pulleys, by the time one goes through the cost of single pulleys and if they are not transmitting enough power, and are burning or slipping excessive, and you go back in and rebuild it next year, by the time it is rebuilt the second time it will cost you as much or more than the first time, I would go double the cost, and the other thing I have found trying to cut corners in a rebuild or reconstruction usually does not pay,
(I rebuilt a trencher and modified it so I could use it, and figured it was on a 30 hp tractor so IF I follow the 30 hp rating on the PTO, and the gear box I will be fine, so I bought a PTO shaft rated for 30 hp, and had to replace U joints in it about ever 10 Min's and that was with greasing it ever few Min's as well in heavy digging, finally bought a 70 hp rated unit and have never changed a U joint in it since, on the gear box, (still going) but was looking at it some time ago, and noticed some odd stuff on it handing out of a few places, it was plastic plugs that had been placed in threaded holes to keep them clean, they had melted and started drip out and was hanging down under the machine, It had severely over heated, no I need a heaver gear box for it, (now if I had it on a 30 hp tractor I probably would not have the problem, but since the tractor I have is more than double that, I can over load it very easily, and yes it has shear pins, (wood ones at that), and have not sheared them, under normal operations, but I have over loaded the drive on the system, with the more HP tractor. and I thought I had it heavy enough. just my experiences.
I would move the pulley to the side and trailer mount it, rather than use a double reduction system, IF it was me, or at least chain drive the first reduction if your going to go double reduction,
No I am not an engineer, and I may be full of *****, but I have built and modified and reconstructions and farmed since the mid 1970's, and have replaced many chain drives as part of maintenance on combines and farm machinery, and have learned that chains if over worked stretch a lot and wear fast, and V belts really have problems if over loaded, If working in there work range they will last for many many many years, and need little attention,
and IF I remember the chart correctly about 6 to 7 Hp is all the "B" belt could transfer and it may have been less than that, your small pulley is part of the problem, as there is only so much surface area, "grip area" and then the speed has a heat effect on things as well,
I know if you change this over you want to do it one time and as right as one can do it, the first time, In my past experience I have found in many instances, is to learn from what other manufactures have done to make there machines work, and some one posted the PDF of the wood machine, and it may be heavier and made for more HP, but I would copy there drive system, as my guess is they have tested and tried a number of methods to make it reliable and cost effective,
This is my opinion, but if I was doing this for me I would go with a double belt system and use the 18" and the 3" and most likely the spring loaded idler, as it it will give and absorb sock better than the slider system on the tighing of the belts, (my old combine has a idler tighter on most of the drives that can have shock loads, I would think that John Deere knows some thing, the cylinder, the feeder house, and some of the other drives, drives that do not have shock loads are many times just a tightener),
you do what you want to do, I have given you what I think I would do if given the same situation, and if I understand correctly what you want to accomplish,
GOOD luck on the project,
on the double pulleys, by the time one goes through the cost of single pulleys and if they are not transmitting enough power, and are burning or slipping excessive, and you go back in and rebuild it next year, by the time it is rebuilt the second time it will cost you as much or more than the first time, I would go double the cost, and the other thing I have found trying to cut corners in a rebuild or reconstruction usually does not pay,
(I rebuilt a trencher and modified it so I could use it, and figured it was on a 30 hp tractor so IF I follow the 30 hp rating on the PTO, and the gear box I will be fine, so I bought a PTO shaft rated for 30 hp, and had to replace U joints in it about ever 10 Min's and that was with greasing it ever few Min's as well in heavy digging, finally bought a 70 hp rated unit and have never changed a U joint in it since, on the gear box, (still going) but was looking at it some time ago, and noticed some odd stuff on it handing out of a few places, it was plastic plugs that had been placed in threaded holes to keep them clean, they had melted and started drip out and was hanging down under the machine, It had severely over heated, no I need a heaver gear box for it, (now if I had it on a 30 hp tractor I probably would not have the problem, but since the tractor I have is more than double that, I can over load it very easily, and yes it has shear pins, (wood ones at that), and have not sheared them, under normal operations, but I have over loaded the drive on the system, with the more HP tractor. and I thought I had it heavy enough. just my experiences.
CharlieS
Gold Member
While a shear bolt is a good thought, i'm wondering if a 1/4" bolt may not be a bit of overkill for this application.
The reason i wonder relates to past experience. Many years ago we custom harvested silage and ran a Farmhand 3 row self propelled chopper. It was powered by a 318 Detroit Diesel derated to 250 hp and turned a massive flywheel the cutter's were mounted to. I have no idea of the weight now as many years have passed, but several hundred pounds i'm sure. The shear bolt in question was nothing more than a grade 3 - 1/4 x 20.
Granted shock load will be much different on a chipper but if a 250 hp chopper can exist with that size shear pin, it makes me wonder if the quarter inch might not be a bit of overkill.
I think i'd start smaller and upsize as needed, maybe start with a #10 machine screw size and go from there.
After all, too large of a shear bolt offers no protection.
bucmeister
Silver Member
Have you thought about getting a generator gear box off of eBay? They have several suppliers of 540:1800 and 540:3600 gear boxes rated to spin 24-30 Kw generator heads. Granted the generator would not have the shock load of the chopper head, however you could use a 1800 output with a 1.5:1 step up pulley/belt system to get the 2400 rpm cutter head speed the unit is designed for.
schmism
Super Member
use the mid mount 1000rpm PTO and run a long straight shaft out the front.
a 2:1 box which is common for brush hog gear boxes and your good to go. you could still add the double belt pulley system to get the last 400rpm. (3" to 4" pulley)
a 2:1 box which is common for brush hog gear boxes and your good to go. you could still add the double belt pulley system to get the last 400rpm. (3" to 4" pulley)
BHD, your input has been exceptionally valuable and I'm listening with all ears! No need to worry...
Busmeister, can you post a link to a 540:3600 gearbox? I can't find one for my life. If such a beast exists, very likely my troubles would be solved.
Schmism, the mid-PTO is actually 2100 rpm which means I need a 1:1.6 gear box and those are available. Unfortunately running the thing via the mid PTO is twice the pain-in-the-%ss than I'm looking for.
Busmeister, can you post a link to a 540:3600 gearbox? I can't find one for my life. If such a beast exists, very likely my troubles would be solved.
Schmism, the mid-PTO is actually 2100 rpm which means I need a 1:1.6 gear box and those are available. Unfortunately running the thing via the mid PTO is twice the pain-in-the-%ss than I'm looking for.
