Heating my pole barn (ND Edition)

[Slowpoke Slim]

I didn't want to hijack an existing thread. This would be the "North Dakota" Edition... and yeah, it really does get to -40F here in winter (although not THIS winter for some reason).

I'm kicking around the idea of heating my new pole barn. We just moved in this past summer, bought an existing house with an existing pole barn, so still lots of things to square away at the new place. Lower on the list, but still there is looking at my 40x70x14' wall pole barn. It is new construction (~5 years), has power and lights (100 amp panel), but no insulation and no heat source. Also sadly, it is a gravel floor. I think it's crushed concrete. Mrs. Slim said at time of purchase that we could just have a concrete floor poured (lol, yeah ok Dear, whatever you say - wait until you find out how much THAT will cost ). Lets just say I doubt it ever gets concreted. Lets also just say that Mrs. Slim fell in love with this house immediately when she saw it, so this is where we live now. Call it a "compromise". Lol.

Anyway, first step to me would be to insulate the shell, probably just keep it simple and spray foam the entire inside (open rafters) and whatever R value we end up with is what we'll have. There is a roll up door at one end, 16'x14' high that I'll probably put foam panels on, and there's a barn-style sliding door at the other end that's probably 12'x14' high that I'll do the same. There's only one walk in door to access the building. When it's all closed up, it is surprisingly air tight. No roof vents to deal with.

The next biggest issue I will have is there is currently only electrical power on site for choice for heat source. We have no propane on site, house is all electric. It (the house) does have a geothermal system, with backup electric forced air furnace for supplemental heat, so the house is "good". We're out in the county, so no natural gas would ever be available. I don't really want to heat that large of air space (the shop) with electric heat, as in my mind that would be frightfully expensive. I think the cheapest option would either be a large double barrel (55 gal drum type) wood burning stove, or maybe a pellet stove. Maybe more than one pellet stove. That or bring in a propane tank and go with ceiling mounted propane fired furnace(s), or ceiling mounted radiant.

The goal wouldn't be to get the whole place up to "T-shirt temperature", but would like to be able to keep it above zero, or better yet, above freezing when I'm out there. Even if it's an area near to the heat source that I could still work around in when needed. I do have a heated and insulated oversized 2 car garage attached to the house that has my "shop" setup in it now. Tools, saws, large (220v) shop air compressor and reloading bench. But right now, that takes away one parking spot inside.

Right now the shop building is just being used for storage/parking. My 34' 5th wheel RV trailer (winterized), 18' flatbed car trailer, tractor + implements, riding mower, etc, are all parked out there. There's also plenty of spare room out there (for now, lol, I know shop space tends to evaporate over time). I wouldn't mind getting some of my space back in the attached garage though. Would be nice to park my truck inside a heated garage in winter time. Wife's car goes in the one side, but the other half of garage space is currently my "shop".

So kicking around ideas really. I've even thought about bringing in a smallish construction office trailer and parking it in the shop building on footings. That would give me another insulated area that would be easier to heat and keep warm, but how useful would that space really be vs. open shop area. I would probably keep my reloading shop in the garage, but wouldn't mind moving the rest out to the shop building eventually.

Not in a hurry for any of this, wife has informed me that this is our "last house". Lol. But pondering these things gives me stuff to do this winter. So far there's no snow to move, and nothing to mow, so lots of spare time to "ponder things".

Thoughts?







These are from closing, the day we got the keys. The shop has more "stuff" in it now. Lol.

 

[GSVette]

I have a 40x60x14 pole building that I heat and cool with a heat pump. With your very low cold temperatures it probably wouldn’t be sufficient by itself but combined with wood or propane it might suffice and you get air conditioning.

Insulation is the first key- I have R-21 batt in the walls and the ceiling. Significantly less expensive than spray foam. My 16x12 garage door is insulated but does not have near the R value of the walls/roof.

Careful sealing of the doors/windows cuts off major cold leakage.

Not really sure the gravel floor is any better/ worse than my uninsulated concrete floor. In retrospect I wish I’d taken the time to at least provision for in floor heat.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

I admit I'm jealous of your concrete floor. At least you can drive a lift over it, or use a floor jack on it.

I'm honestly not sure how I'd get up into the rafters to roll insulation on it, that and I'm not exactly a spring chicken anymore to be doing such things. Main reason I was thinking spray foam was just so I didn't have to get "up there". I have electric lifts I can borrow from work, but not the big boom lift type that I would need to go over the gravel surface with. I guess I could stand on the roof of the 5th wheel and use that as a scaffolding... would be able to get it around in there to do most of it, maybe. I think the roll insulation would be better R value for sure.

The building is pleasantly air tight, so even during a wind storm (we get those too), at 50+ mph, the only air leakage is around the sides of the sliding barn door on the one corner.

 

[civilian]

......

Not really sure the gravel floor is any better/ worse than my uninsulated concrete floor. In retrospect I wish I’d taken the time to at least provision for in floor heat.

OP could take advantage of the gravel floor to insulate the floor, laying in pex tubing and pouring concrete for a heated floor. Use a high effieciency(sp?) propane boiler for heat source. Or add an outdoor wood boiler to heat the floor. Or maybe just parts of the floor and partition off areas for cold storage areas. I have a garage with heated floors from a wood boiler, my work shop has a propane boiler with a dividing wall to separate the rest of the building for cold storage. Just ideas for OP. Jon

 

[civilian]

.......

The building is pleasantly air tight, so even during a wind storm (we get those too), at 50+ mph, the only air leakage is around the sides of the sliding barn door on the one corner.

For the sliding door, build a panel to cover it on the inside to seal the air leaks. Jon

 

[GSVette]

I admit I'm jealous of your concrete floor. At least you can drive a lift over it, or use a floor jack on it.

I'm honestly not sure how I'd get up into the rafters to roll insulation on it, that and I'm not exactly a spring chicken anymore to be doing such things. Main reason I was thinking spray foam was just so I didn't have to get "up there". I have electric lifts I can borrow from work, but not the big boom lift type that I would need to go over the gravel surface with. I guess I could stand on the roof of the 5th wheel and use that as a scaffolding... would be able to get it around in there to do most of it, maybe. I think the roll insulation would be better R value for sure.

The building is pleasantly air tight, so even during a wind storm (we get those too), at 50+ mph, the only air leakage is around the sides of the sliding barn door on the one corner.

I was going to do the roof insulation myself but decided it was worth the $4k to have someone else do it ( I did all of the walls myself). They did the entire installation from scaffolds. Said it was easier than a man lift ( and cheaper) when I asked.

 

[s219]

I would hope they put down a vapor barrier under that gravel floor when the barn was built. If that is unknown, maybe you can gently dig in a corner to see if you find one. That would be the #1 thing to remedy if it's not already in place.

If you have access to cheap firewood, seems like that is a no-brainer for on-demand heat. Add a few ceiling fans or a blower and it will help spread the heat around. But offhand, it seems challenging to heat a 40x70 barn with wood for short periods of time. I suspect it will just begin feeling warm when you have to close up for the day and head out. A heat pump system would work in milder months, but when it gets really cold, forget about it. Geo would be great but I suspect the cost will be insane for just a barn.

Do they still have oil heat out there? In CT, my dad had a large steel building (about 120x120 with 20' walls) and it was heated with oil. There were oil-fired hot air units mounted up in the corners of the building. He just used them to keep the temps tolerable in the winter months, probably 60F. I imagine you could do the same thing with propane too -- just need to have a tank installed and line up delivery.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

OP could take advantage of the gravel floor to insulate the floor, laying in pex tubing and pouring concrete for a heated floor. Use a high effieciency(sp?) propane boiler for heat source. Or add an outdoor wood boiler to heat the floor. Or maybe just parts of the floor and partition off areas for cold storage areas. I have a garage with heated floors from a wood boiler, my work shop has a propane boiler with a dividing wall to separate the rest of the building for cold storage. Just ideas for OP. Jon

Honestly, I'd love to have a concrete floor. The last time I had concrete quoted here (5 years ago?) it was $6 a foot. And that was the cheapest (and probably not the best-guy ended up being a snake). I don't think the Finance Minister is going to go along with that one. Lol. Maybe "someday". I think if I ever did manage to get that one past the CFO, I would have the pipes put in for floor heat just so they were there.

 

[ruffdog]

That building is a giant space to heat and all the heat is going to go up to the ceiling (ceiling fans?). Unless you are ready to insulate that big box, I would get a torpedo heater and crack the doors open. Heat the space only when you need it. If you want a better radiant type heater that has almost no odors and burns diesel, go with a Sunfire heater. You will heaters like that on the sidelines of football games too. If you plan to be out in the shop all the time, get ready to $pend some ca$h.

SunFire | Industrial Grade Radiant Heaters

Do you have access to lots of waste oil? Heat with that....

Lanair Waste Oil Heaters

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

For the sliding door, build a panel to cover it on the inside to seal the air leaks. Jon

I may do a rubber flap down the sides. It's just along the sides where the door rests against the wall. And this was literally 50 mph gusts at the time. Rest of the building was tight, and no rattles either.