Heat stroke isn't cool...

[Rch]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

The glucose/sucrose in a sports drink maybe appropiate during a high and prolonged energy expendature situation such as a marathon (one advantage is it is metabolize to(more) water and CO2,which is easily exhaled- so you get the calories fast with a helpful by product,H2O). For most of us we should let the body get those calories from that spare tire around our middle. I'd tend to use a drink that uses a non caloric sweetener or is light on the sugur if keeping off weight is an issue; if you're skinny and/or working like a marathoner use a drink with sugar in it.

RCH

 

[Rowski]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Rch,

Thanks for the formula. Could it be made without Karo syrup? I am a diabetic, insulin dependent, on an pump. I usually do not use sport drinks because I would have to bolus some insulin to cover it, that gets tricky during moderate to heavy working to balance this all out. So I would basically drink lots of water, try to eat healthier for the nutrients and hope for the best! My mom has always said put a little more salt on your food during the heat. I will have to ask my wife to translate some of your post in english. Thanks again.

By the way, for other diabetics, an insulin pump is the best thing. Made my life the most flexiable it has ever been. Ask your doctor about it. I can give some web links to the pump companies.

Derek

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Thanks Doc!

Now, for us laypersons, what is NaHC03 and where can it be purchased?

Is there any magnesium in this formula you mentioned, or is it necessary?

Is there any harm in using as little Karo as is possible? Or is it necessary for the minerals to be absorbed properly?

Thanks again for your detailed response - I'm planning on "rolling my own" "tractor drink" based on your info.

Mark

 

[Rch]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

NaHCO3 is sodium bicarbonate-Arm & Hammer baking soda- that stuff kids mix with acetic acid[vinager] and launch a million rockets.
Mg or magnesium shouldn't be a problem for the short haul, a day or two, assuming a varied diet is part of the equation.
Diabetes mellitus is a whole other matter, varying from minor to major adjustments. Diabetes is like a triangle with calories on one point, exercise on the second point and insulin[or pills] on the third one- you change one factor and you got to adjust the other two in order to keep the blood glucose in a normal range. This can be relatively easy in maturity-onset(type 1-over 30)with lots of exceptions and usually more difficult in juvenile diabetes,also with lots of exceptions.
As discussed Karo syrup(sugar/glucose/dextrose/sucrose, pretty much the same)can be left out if you don't need the calories. Lightly sweetened(artificially or with sugar) lemonade fortified with a little Morton Lyte Salt, NaHCO3 drank a little bit often so that the urine is alway pale is the way to go. A 7-11 52 ounce insulated container sounds like just the ticket- like 3 or 4 or even more a day. Kidneys can deal with excess-they just pee it out. What they can't deal with is shortage.

Say, what about "KUBOTADE" or "JD POWER DRINK" or"NH LYTE" or "GREY! DRINK".With some food coloring,a bath tub and a snake oil marketing campaign it could be the next AMZOIL.
RCH<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Rch on 8/31/00 00:16 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[TomG]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

I'm not claiming any expertise here, but I am aware that there are different opinions about the value of sugar supplements to sustain any type of abnormally strenuous activity.

I think it's important to distinguish between sustaining performance and sustaining health. They aren't always the same. Many of the popularized approaches are designed for use by competitive athletes. Athletes may be more concerned with immediate athletic performance than long term health. I'd check things out real carefully before concocting some home-brew that is intended to allow persons to undertake some activity that otherwise would be injurious to health. I mean after all, electrolyte balance in an individual is pretty complex. A better approach probably is to avoid things where an extreme intervention is needed just to keep going. Even drinking a lot of plain water is extreme.

I'm talking as a person whose recreational athletics went competitive. I stayed in competitive training eight years for soccer. Here, I'll keep myself from whining about the eventual benefits from my former supposedly healthy life style. I mean, it's really a good idea to try and take it easy--especially if your livelihood doesn't depend on keeping going. A sports drink isn't going to make a recreation person into an athlete just like having a tractor doesn't make a person like me into a farmer. Besides, athletes tend to retire early into a life of aches and pains--same with farmers. Even so, I suppose I might use a little 'lite-salt' or 'half n half' if I was sweating a lot and drinking water, although sitting in the shade until evening is probably a better idea. Another approach is just have fun with the idea of a 'Botadrink' and not take any of this too seriously.

 

[MarkV]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Tom,

Your point is well taken and I wish I could sit in the shade until things cooled down. Lets see, that would be May 15 til Sept. 30 here in Georgia./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif OK by me but the wife still wants a pay check coming in. The nature of my work keeps me pushing pretty hard and now that I am pushing that Big 50 I watch thing pretty close.

I don't look at "Bota-Aid" as a performance enhancer just a body saver. Sounds like the home brew cuts through the sports drink hype and gets to the basic needs for the body.

All that said, your point of moderation is for sure the best solution. I also have some of the aches and pains left over from my younger superman days. Now if we can keep MarkC from adding a shot of Amisol to his mix so he can run smoother, last longer and change fluids less often.

Guess the best lesson we can learn from this, is don't take the heat lightly. It can hurt you bad and poor MarkC took the hit to remind us all. Thanks to everyone for the education I have gotten from all the information offered.

MarkV

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

RCH - Thanks again for all the info! It's great having a tractor-operator-physician on the staff.

My problem (well, the one relevant to this discussion) is that I sweat profusely, and don't want anything to eat when it's that hot. So, both things aggravated the situation. As I mentioned before, I drank over 20 half-liters of water that Wednesday and didn't urinate once between 6:30 AM and 9 PM. Perhaps, in addition to making up some "Trac-lyte", I'll make sure I take a multi-vitamin and mineral tablet to insure that I get the magnesium and other stuff.

Mark

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

TomG & MarkV - I understand the sentiments about "performance enhancers", I think. But as MarkV mentioned, I'm not worried so much about performance as I am survival. I'd like to just not work in those conditions, too, but it's not possible. When I've got a project scheduled, there's a lot of people depending on that schedule and it getting done when it's supposed to. Of course, nothing is worth killing yourself over, but other people were out there working (and some of them doing more consistently strenuous physical things than I was) who didn't get sick. That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, that just because they can do it, I can, too. But I'd like to think that if I replace the stuff I lose to sweating by drinking a sufficient quantity of the right solution, I could avoid killing myself. That's the objective, anyway. I just think I made some stupid mistakes (not counting "not staying in the house") that, if corrected, could keep it from happening again. I'm going to find out, anyway. I'm going to make up some packets of the dry ingredients and try it, taking care to monitor myself a lot more carefully than I did last time. I don't want to go through that again, that's for sure.

MarkV, I tried the Amsoil, but I just can't get past the taste. If I have to start drinking that, TomG's suggestion of just staying home will be all I've got left.

MarkC

 

[Rch]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

A little correction on my 8-31-00 post; juvenile diabetes is type 1,maturity onset is type 2.--RCH

RCH

 

[TomG]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

My wife commented that on her 'Outward Bound' trip, the leaders insisted that everybody drink water and eat 'gorp' during strenuous portions of the trip. Sounds like you might have gone beyond what that type of general-purpose approach can accomplish. It also sounds like you went beyond what a general approach like a sports drink can accomplish. I did mention a preparation intended to sustain persons through dysentery or until medical attention can be obtained. It sounds like your fluid losses might have been in the range of severe dysentery. However, such preparations still are general-purpose tools, and are intended for use in emergency situations.

OK, here's my point. If you are in unavoidable situations where the demands start pushing the ability of general approaches to cope, then you're at risk. In such conditions, individual differences start to play a major role in what works and what doesn't. Reliance on general approaches may not remove the risks. It might be worth seeing if your doc will get you to a appropriate specialist who can define an approach specifically for your needs. Severe fluid loss is a killer. I believe that thousands, or even tens of thousands, of children die each day from the effects of dysentery.

Don't take such situations lightly or think that self-monitoring is a reliable control. I experienced the symptoms you described for several hours after running marathon distances. By the time I recognized I had a problem it was too late for corrective measures.

 

[gandalf]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

A word of caution is in order when it comes to "sports drinks." All of these drinks are full of sugar and are not recommended for people with Diabetes or people with a borderline case of the disease. Most folks just need good, cool water and a few forced breaks. I am goal oriented and have a tendency to work myself to death at times- even when there's no reason to. Remember that once a person has had a heat stroke, he'll never be the same again when working in hot-humid weather. Slow down and smell the roses-cows, whatever! Sam /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

"I love the smell of diesel in the morning."
Cummins powered 24V Dodge Rams rule!

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Being a certified card-carrying nut, I've approached this hydration and electrolyte-replacement business with the zeal of the "born again".

My good friend Jack (not my good friend JackinIL who contributes to this board) is diabetic and can't use the sports drinks, and I have no intention of consuming that much sugar, even though I'm not diabetic, so I've experimented with ways to use Dr. RCH's formula without the sugar, for both of us.

As it turns out, sugar-free Tang works well, as do the various flavors of Crystal Light. There are also a few flavors of sugar-free Cool-Aid that work well. I find that I have to mix it a tad stronger than the package directions to keep the flavor strong enough to suit me. For my 52-oz. cup, I usually put the whole 2 quarts amount of mix in. Depending on how much I'm eating (when it's really hot I don't have any appetite) I'll make every third or fourth batch out of regular Cool-Aid with Karo syrup for calories.

I put the pre-measured amounts of dry ingredients together into 35mm film canisters, so I can just dump it in my behemoth cup, fill it with cold water and swish it around. The Karo syrup goes into a squeeze ketchup bottle for easy dispensing, and I just guess at the amount after having practiced it a couple of times at home with a measuring spoon.

I was able to "rehearse" the process during a two-day project last Friday and Saturday and it worked extremely well. Jack drank quite a bit of it and thought it tasted good and he said he thought he felt better, too. It wasn't as hot as it was when I got the heat stroke, but it was upper 80's with 100% humidity. I sweated profusely all day long both days, but didn't have any problems and felt great, with no after-effects. As far as I'm concerned, the stuff works and I've got a manageable system. Next week, I'll be working on another 6-day project, so that'll be the acid test, assuming the weather is hot enough, of course.

MarkC

 

[MarkV]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Mark,

You take it easy, it takes a long time for the body to come back 100%. Know your a smart guy and will be watching close. Can't have our R&D department down again.

MarkV

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Mark (great name!) - Thanks for the kind words. I know you're right about it taking a while to get back to 100%. I noticed Friday and Saturday that I can sweat about as much looking at work now as I used to when doing it. At least, I don't think it's my imagination. You can bet I'm being a lot more careful these days - there are some things you don't need to repeat.

MarkC

 

[Rch]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Mark, glad to hear of your experience with the "Replenishment Formula". Pee pale and stay isotonic!
Dr RCH

RCH

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

RCH - On a separate but very related subject, are there any known side effects to worry about from consuming large quantities of NutraSweet?

I'm starting another 7-day project next Monday, and figure on practically drowning myself in fluids if it's hot, so I was just curious.

MarkC

 

[Rch]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Re Nutrasweet; I don't specifically know the answer to your ?. The rule with toxicity is "what is the dose"- everything is toxic at some dose.For example, plain water can be toxic if enough is consumed so that electrolytes become diluted (or drowning!) I'll look into Nutrasweet's toxicities after I return from a conference next week. However, I've never heard of a clinical situation of over- dose with Nutrasweet.This being readily available, the FDA would be super conservative on this point.

RCH

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

RCH - Thanks! I know all about how toxic water can be!

When I say large amounts, I'm talking about in aggregate, not in concentration, of course. I just meant that if you drink two gallons of liquids sweetened with Nutrasweet per day, does it pose a risk because of the total amount consumed, even though the solution is at the normal (or lower) concentration?

Thanks again for all your help.

MarkC

 

[Harv]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Just wanted to thank MarkC and all who contributed to this thread. The information presented here prompted me to make a small change to my outdoor work habits, with fairly dramatic results.

Yesterday I was up at "the property", putting in yet another stint of manual labor, making preparations for that tractor path I keep talking about. From 8:30 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. I was out waging battle with my simple non-tractor tools, whacking weeds, cutting and hauling small trees, clearing brush, even moving a few good-sized boulders.

Although not in the Texas category of heat, the mercury hit 90+ degrees by early afternoon and I was doing my usual "toughing-it-out" routine -- busting my hump and just taking the occasional sip of soda. This time, however, due entirely to what was said on this thread, I forced myself to stroll back to the house once every hour for a tall glass of Gatorade. The brief pause in an air-conditioned house was refreshing in itself, but it's what I noticed later that really counts.

On prior workdays like this (and there have been many), I was totally wasted at the end of the day, barely able to stay awake long enough to drag myself into bed (after the 2-1/2 hour drive home), and on the following day I was always pretty much useless -- groggy, sluggish, etc. I was chalking it up to the fact that I'm in my second half-century now and that's just the way things are.     Wrong!!!

This time, after consuming a total of a couple of quarts of Gatorade (all of which went down quite easily, by the way), I was not only not wasted at the end of the day, but almost invigorated. The real test came the next morning at the gym (us computer types need some excercise to stay in shape). Instead of that weary swimming-in-syrup feeling I was expecting, I was just fine. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif In fact, the only after-effects I noticed from that fairly grueling day's work in the sun was sore feet (I think it's time to replace my 25-year old work boots).

I don't know how to explain it other than assuming the Gatorade did the trick. This is a big deal to me, 'cuz among other things it means I'm not as old as I thought I was (some of you out there know exactly what I'm talking about /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif).

So thanks again all of you, and I hope somewhere down the line I can help at least one person as much as you have helped me.

 

[dmccarty]

Re: Heat stroke isn\'t cool...

Here are some other tips I have found that help me. Besides
the proper hydration and rest, I force myself to eat at least every two hours or so, if not every hour. I eat a
granola type of snack, calling it granola is kinda insulting
since it has walnuts, dried blueberrys, raisens, etc., and tastes better the granola!

I don't drink the sports drinks since they usually make me sick on the stomach but I drink lots of water. One work session this summer in high heat and humidty I averaged a half liter of water every hour.

Lately I'm working with a chainsaw. I DO NOT PUSH myself when working the chainsaw. If I find myself getting sloppy or tired I stop. Usually I can work until the fuel runs out of the saw, 45-60 minutes, but on the really hot days I might last only 30 minutes and then its break time. I wear safety pants when using the saw, and to keep off the ticks and chiggers, I wear long pants and long sleave shirts. This gets a bit hot!

The other item that seems to help the muscles is to stretch during and after work. But the big helper seems to be a boost in protein. I'll have big breakfast heavy in protein.
The granola is heavy in protein because of the nuts and I'll try to have a dinner that is heavy on protien. If I can, I'll have a protein drink with 30grams before bedtime.
I've found that after heavy workouts either from running, labor or weight training, boosting protein for 24-48 hours after the event helps to ease any post work/labor pains.

My rules are....
- Pleny of water so I have to pee often.
- Eat every hour, two hours at the most.
- Rest every hour when using power equipment.
- Eat lots of protein before, during, and after work.
- Be very very very careful....