hard starting Deere 110- any suggestions?

[irwin]

Well, for a couple weeks this, new to me, "69" 110 would start after cranking for 5-15 seconds, now not so much. Will crank and crank, smell of gas, I'll remove plug and clean, crank engine w/out plug, put it back and maybe will start up. (Runs fine when it starts). Not exactly my idea of a useful machine..

Is there something I'm not doing? I put a new plug in it the first time it happened, but no better (old plug looked ok). Do these coils have a history of getting weak with age?

I'd hate to have to use starting fluid on a good engine, long term ether use is not so good for cylinder, rings, etc.

Hopefully I'd like to be able to jump on and trust it to start up quickly, like the rest of you guys we want our work machine to behave.

Any ideas.....???

BTW I'm ordering a service manual for it monday, along with one for my 770. (Trying to get manuals for all my tooltoys, )

 

[TedLaRue]

You mentioned smelling gas and also mentioned getting it to start after cranking the engine without the plug installed. That suggests a flooding problem. However, you may also have an ignition problem on a machine that old.

===== Check for spark:
I would check for spark before pulling the carburetor because it's so easy to do. Remove the plug, put the wire back on it, and lay the plug on the engine block or some unpainted metal connected to the engine block. Hold the plug in place with a stick or board if necessary. Crank the engine and watch for spark. It's easier to see the spark if you're working in the shade or a darker place.

If you have a good blue spark, then I'd bet that the needle and/or seat on your float valve needs replaced, adjusted, or cleaned. If you've never replaced it, now would be a good time.

If you suspect a weak or non-existant spark, you may have ignition problems. Your machine has breaker points and a condensor (capacitor) which are much more likely to be a problem than the coil. See my next post for more information about that.

===== All of the following assumes you have a carburetor problem! =====
===== See my next post for ignition problems.

You can drop the float bowl off without removing the carburetor by simply removing a hex-head screw on the bottom of the bowl. (Warning: When you remove this screw, some gasoline will leak out.) This would allow you to remove any water that's accumulated in the float bowl, and you could spray carb cleaner on some of the parts. This may fix problems with a carburetor that's otherwise in good condition, something you might need to do in the spring after the machine sat unused for a while.

But for other problems, or if you haven't worked on carburetors much, you'd probably be ahead to remove the whole carburetor so you can see what's going on. First, obtain a gasket kit for the carburetor. If you haven't done any carb maintenance in 10 years, go for a rebuild kit rather than just a gasket kit. Remove the air cleaner first, then remove and plug the fuel line, remove the two bolts that hold the carburetor on, and carefully disconnect the linkage from the governor/throttle/choke.

Clean the carburetor with carb cleaner (I like the CRC brand), especially the needles and seats and passages. Be very careful you don't spray yourself in the eye. When you squirt cleaner down one passage it may come out another hole right at you. Replace the parts that came in the repair kit. Adjust the float level (I don't know the measurement, but the service manual will have it) and put it all back together. Make the basic adjustments to the idle and fast needles, start it up, and then make the fine adjustments.

Here's a link to JD parts for your machine:
John Deere Parts Model Search
Enter your model number (110) and select the correct machine, then under the alphabetical listing choose "C" for carburetor. It shows two carburetors, choose the one that looks like yours.

 

[TedLaRue]

If you suspect a weak spark, you may have ignition problems. On your old non-electronic-ignition machine, the spark is triggered when the breaker points open.

The breaker points are essentially a switch operated by a cam on the drive shaft. They are usually located under the flywheel. A condenser (actually just a capacitor) is also involved.

If the condenser is bad, your machine will probably not start at all. If the points are out of adjustment, then the machine may be hard to start, but may run pretty well once it starts.

For proper ignition, the gap in the points must be properly adjusted and the condenser must be ok. If the gap is too wide, the coil won't have time to fully charge. If the gap is too small, the spark duration will be too short. A typical gap is 0.020" when the points are wide open. It may be different for your machine.

You can check the condenser by connecting an ohm meter across it, waiting until the needle stops moving (at infinite resistance), and then quickly reversing the leads. If the condenser is good the needle will peg toward zero as the condenser discharges through the meter.

 

[chrisjbell]

Ted's reply was really good - thourough and accurate. I can tell you that my first inclination is carb, FWIIW. Get a rebuild kit, take it apart, clean it, put it back on and adjust it according to engine manufacturer specs and I bet you solve your problem.

Easiest way to check the ignition is to pull your spark plug, ground it, and crank your engine in a dark area to see if you have spark. You can get a gnarly shock this way - I recommend using insulated pliers to hold the plug.

These engines are pretty simple and fairly bulletproof. You should be able to get this thing to run OK.

 

[irwin]

Finally went out at 5:30 and pulled the air cleaner cover, filter not new but not old/dirty either, check spark with old plug, nice spark. removed my new plug and it was damp, but not too bad. put it back together and tried again using the procedure the seller told me works.. no start. Was gonna call it a day (spent it shopping-welding-cleaning up ) and tried it with almost no choke and 3/4 throttle (was told not to do that by seller) started right up! no long crank just er-er/ put-put-put (put-put-put, is the one lunger running)

This might be an anomaly, will try it again after work tomorrow and see.

off into the woods we go.....

 

[RalphVa]

I suspect that you're needing what my 14SB mower probably needs: a valve job. See my 14SB woes in another threat in this forum area. On the 14SB, a valve job will be relatively easily, as it has OHV. On the older side valve engines (guess that's what yours is), it's slightly tougher, but not too bad a job.

However, check out your spark system and its timing as suggested by others. On my old Gravely, I changed the points and condenser on it, and it wouldn't start. I had to set the plug gap closer than the 0.020" spec value. Otherwise, the points weren't closing to charge up the condenser. Could be something worth looking into on your engine.

If you're getting spark, try using starting fluid. If it won't start with starting fluid without a smell of gasoline (meaning: not too rich), it's probably low compression.

Check compression with and without some oil squirts into the spark plug hole to determine whether valves or rings. If the oil has been staying fairly clean, the rings are okay. This is the case with my 14SB.

Ralph

 

[irwin]

I suspect that you're needing what my 14SB mower probably needs: a valve job. See my 14SB woes in another threat in this forum area. On the 14SB, a valve job will be relatively easily, as it has OHV. On the older side valve engines (guess that's what yours is), it's slightly tougher, but not too bad a job.

However, check out your spark system and its timing as suggested by others. On my old Gravely, I changed the points and condenser on it, and it wouldn't start. I had to set the plug gap closer than the 0.020" spec value. Otherwise, the points weren't closing to charge up the condenser. Could be something worth looking into on your engine.

If you're getting spark, try using starting fluid. If it won't start with starting fluid without a smell of gasoline (meaning: not too rich), it's probably low compression.

Check compression with and without some oil squirts into the spark plug hole to determine whether valves or rings. If the oil has been staying fairly clean, the rings are okay. This is the case with my 14SB.

Ralph

I appreciate your post Ralph. The possibility of engine work needed was taken into account when buying this one. Maybe secretly I wanted an excuse to rebuild something old that's not a car or truck (too much time and $ into automobile overhaul).

Good thing it's not a rush need anymore. My SIL gave us a perfectly good 9 or 10 year old craftsman 19.5hp lawn tractor last week. She no longer needed it, had sold her property last fall. Had a flat, no other evident problems, runs great.

We now have a #1. craftsman LT2000 W/kohler 17.5hp, #2. craftsman 19.5 B&S, #3. J deere 110 8hp kohler, and the most useful #4. J deere 770 tlb.

If/when I get into this GT 110's engine, I'll post my results, most likely after asking for more advice..

 

[TedLaRue]

irwin,

I'd like to second Ralph's good suggestion that you might need a valve job. That sounds like a good off-season project. You can check the compression to see how bad the valves/rings are. You'd have to know the compression specification, though. You can buy a compression tester at your local auto parts store. Here's one for $25 at AutoZone:
Inexpensive Compression Tester at AutoZone

If you decide to do the compression test, someone here probably knows the specification, and if not, I'm pretty sure I could find it on-line.

 

[TedLaRue]

Originally Posted by RalphVA
Otherwise, the points weren't closing to charge up the condenser.

I think Ralph means to say "long enough to charge up the coil".

I'm sure many readers don't give a hoot about all of these technical details. I fixed quite a few engines by replacing points and condensers before I learned how they worked. When I finally learned what was going on, it felt like coming home. No more stumbling in the dark. For the two or three readers who may be interested, here's how they work. Modern ignition systems work the same way except that points are replaced by electronic switches.

When the points close, electrical current goes through the coil and gives it a magnetic charge. When the points open, the current suddenly** stops, and the magnetic charge collapses. That sudden change in magnetic field causes a high voltage in the secondary winding of the coil which is connected to your spark plug (just like a generator/alternator creates current by moving a coil of wire through a magnetic field).

But then things get interesting. The sudden voltage in the secondary winding creates a new magnetic field which causes current to flow in the primary winding. But since the points are open, there would be no place for that current to go....except that the condenser is there. The condenser (capacitor) acts like a sponge to absorb that current. Without the condenser, the current would try to jump across the point gap causing them to "burn" (like when you drop a wrench across your battery terminals ).

This voltage/magnetic field exchange happens back and forth quite a few times before nearly all of the magnetic energy is gone. This is the duration of your spark.

**"Suddenly" is relative. In electronics, mechanical switch contacts open very, very slowly compared to solid state devices (transistors/SCRs). The voltage across your spark plug is determined by how quickly the current through the coils stops. Modern electronic ignitions use solid state devices to stop the current much much much faster than the older mechanical points. And the electronic switches are very fast even if your engine is cranking slowly. The old mechanical points opened slower when the engine was cranking more slowly (think going out to plow snow on a cold winter morning when the engine cranks very slowly and also the cold gasoline vaporizes in the cold air more slowly).

 

[bontai_Joe]

Because of the age of your tractor it MIGHT need internal work on the valves and rings, but my guess is that Ted is right in that a new set of points properly set and a new condensor will get you running ok. They should be replaced every couple of years, but many machines don't get that treat and performance slowly decreases until the day comes when it is hard to start or won't start at all. The Kohlers in these are EXTREMELY reliable and EXTREMELY durable.