Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas

   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #21  
I keep seeing lots of suggestions that could happen were the spark plug still in. The first thing I noticed in the OP was that @bcs001 already checked the obvious possibility of compression relief. So I won’t bother with unrelated stuff about country of origin or electrical issues that would be easily solved by anyone with real electrical expertise. I’m a retired electrical engineer who grew up on a farm where if we couldn’t fix things, they probably couldn’t be fixed. Couldn’t afford technicians and were probably a bit too stubborn to pay for them anyway. I also owned an air cooled VW for 35 years so have a bit of experience with air cooled engine quirks and differences.

This sounds more like a failed bearing, but no way to know whether generator or engine is the source of the problem unless it’s separated and each checked for the stiction issue. If it’s an open frame machine, hopefully it won’t be too much trouble to separate the generator from the engine. Most small generators have only one bearing in the ODE (opposite drive end) and rely on the output shaft bearing to support that end of the rotor. Without the spark plug installed it should spin freely without any resistance other than the inertia of the generator rotor and friction of the engine components. The generator rotor tail bearing is usually either roller or ball bearing because of rotor speed being high enough to toast a sleeve bearing without forced lubrication. The internal bearings in ICE’s are nearly always sleeve bearings because of having forced or splash lubrication and they’re a lot easier to assemble than roller/ball bearings inside a tight space like an engine. Certainly more cost effective for manufacturing. What I read in the OP’s description of symptoms is pointing to a bearing failure in progress. A metal shaving or a little casting sand has taken out more than one engine that was otherwise top quality and preferred name brand. Chit happens, especially if you’re like me, and wouldn’t have any luck at all if it wasn’t BAD luck

This case might be a good argument for extended warranty (basically a form of insurance). But, meanwhile, since that didn’t happen (and would have been no different for me possibly) draining the oil from the engine and running a magnet through it would be a start (and a strong indication that the engine is already FUBAR). However, if the damage is limited to galling of the babbited bearings or milled aluminum parts, chances are you may still need to open up the crankcase and pull out internal parts of the engine for a complete visual inspection. It’s possible that it will be necessary for repairs anyway, so having it apart is halfway to repaired labor wise. A stiction issue on any internal combustion engine with the spark plug removed is NEVER a good thing. If it is easier to r&r the head, that would let you examine the cylinder. That could also be done even quicker with a bore scope through the spark plug hole. While you have the oil drained, a bore scope might show shavings that didn’t come out with the oil, but the bore scope won’t really help examine bearing surfaces. IMHO, the engine and generator should first be separated and the source of the friction identified. Whatever the cause, the testing you’ve already done has eliminated any possibility of compression being the culprit, but hasn’t ruled out a broken ring or bearing. Either of those will be terminal for the engine if as you say the stiction is getting worse.

The starter “dropping out “ is probably due to excessive starting current causing enough voltage drop in the starting circuit. Until you identify the friction issue, no point in messing with the starter. You already stated that the pull-start was difficult to use.

My opinion or guess has nothing to do with my experience, but I think my experience with both ICE and electrical machinery (50 years in the industrial service industry) might affect it. You’re on the right track with the testing, but may have to go farther than planned. If you’re financially sound enough to be able to replace it, that could certainly be the better alternative to repairing it, depending on your skill level with small engines and generators.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #23  
Is it fairly easy to uncouple the engine from the generator? That might narrow down which one it is. Your are also correct in saying with the plug out any compression issue is solved and it should spin easy.
 
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   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas
  • Thread Starter
#24  
I keep seeing lots of suggestions that could happen were the spark plug still in. The first thing I noticed....
Excellent response and thanks for taking the time to prepare it. I'm a retired mechanical engineer so it all makes sense and was the kind of detail I was looking along with a few others who made logical suggestions.

I've have not been able to get additional troubleshooting started yet but plan to do some of the easier quick checks soon. Unfortunately, based on a video I found for this model, separating the generator section from the engine is a very labor intense job and is done by removing individual components along the generator shaft to finally get to the engine.

Once I complete the next few troubleshooting evaluations I'll decide what next steps to take including talking with the store manager since we think it only has maybe 15 total hours on it since purchased new or getting estimates for teardown and repair.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #25  
You might try to see if you can buy a warranty extension now from an HF you have not visited
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas
  • Thread Starter
#26  
You might try to see if you can buy a warranty extension now from an HF you have not visited
Hmmmmm.......Very interesting thought.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #27  
I keep seeing lots of suggestions that could happen were the spark plug still in. The first thing I noticed in the OP was that @bcs001 already checked the obvious possibility of compression relief. So I won’t bother with unrelated stuff about country of origin or electrical issues that would be easily solved by anyone with real electrical expertise. I’m a retired electrical engineer who grew up on a farm where if we couldn’t fix things, they probably couldn’t be fixed. Couldn’t afford technicians and were probably a bit too stubborn to pay for them anyway. I also owned an air cooled VW for 35 years so have a bit of experience with air cooled engine quirks and differences.

This sounds more like a failed bearing, but no way to know whether generator or engine is the source of the problem unless it’s separated and each checked for the stiction issue. If it’s an open frame machine, hopefully it won’t be too much trouble to separate the generator from the engine. Most small generators have only one bearing in the ODE (opposite drive end) and rely on the output shaft bearing to support that end of the rotor. Without the spark plug installed it should spin freely without any resistance other than the inertia of the generator rotor and friction of the engine components. The generator rotor tail bearing is usually either roller or ball bearing because of rotor speed being high enough to toast a sleeve bearing without forced lubrication. The internal bearings in ICE’s are nearly always sleeve bearings because of having forced or splash lubrication and they’re a lot easier to assemble than roller/ball bearings inside a tight space like an engine. Certainly more cost effective for manufacturing. What I read in the OP’s description of symptoms is pointing to a bearing failure in progress. A metal shaving or a little casting sand has taken out more than one engine that was otherwise top quality and preferred name brand. Chit happens, especially if you’re like me, and wouldn’t have any luck at all if it wasn’t BAD luck

This case might be a good argument for extended warranty (basically a form of insurance). But, meanwhile, since that didn’t happen (and would have been no different for me possibly) draining the oil from the engine and running a magnet through it would be a start (and a strong indication that the engine is already FUBAR). However, if the damage is limited to galling of the babbited bearings or milled aluminum parts, chances are you may still need to open up the crankcase and pull out internal parts of the engine for a complete visual inspection. It’s possible that it will be necessary for repairs anyway, so having it apart is halfway to repaired labor wise. A stiction issue on any internal combustion engine with the spark plug removed is NEVER a good thing. If it is easier to r&r the head, that would let you examine the cylinder. That could also be done even quicker with a bore scope through the spark plug hole. While you have the oil drained, a bore scope might show shavings that didn’t come out with the oil, but the bore scope won’t really help examine bearing surfaces. IMHO, the engine and generator should first be separated and the source of the friction identified. Whatever the cause, the testing you’ve already done has eliminated any possibility of compression being the culprit, but hasn’t ruled out a broken ring or bearing. Either of those will be terminal for the engine if as you say the stiction is getting worse.

The starter “dropping out “ is probably due to excessive starting current causing enough voltage drop in the starting circuit. Until you identify the friction issue, no point in messing with the starter. You already stated that the pull-start was difficult to use.

My opinion or guess has nothing to do with my experience, but I think my experience with both ICE and electrical machinery (50 years in the industrial service industry) might affect it. You’re on the right track with the testing, but may have to go farther than planned. If you’re financially sound enough to be able to replace it, that could certainly be the better alternative to repairing it, depending on your skill level with small engines and generators.
This post started as "open frame inverter" so the generator part is very different from an older conventional unit, basically just an engine with a built in a/c coil under the flywheel and a whole bunch of electronic components.
 
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   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #28  
I have pretty much the same same generator, only whatever version from 10 or 15 years ago. I've only had it on the house once or twice and every other time it's doing chores with it. Like it's been mentioned the only way to figure it out is to take it apart or bite the bullet and take it to a shop.
I have an electric pole saw I use around the property (yeah over kill) and just general maintenance with drills and saws for repairs or projects so it doesn't get used a whole lot. I have it in an old Craftsman garden trailer so I can tow it any where with the tractor or mower. It basically only gets used an hour or too every year so I haven't had any issues with mine.

I think people are missing the point with HF, I'm not using it for a business and may only use what ever I do buy only briefly so I can't see buying something that costs 2 to 4 time more and by the time "the quality" product wears out they won't have any parts for it anyway. Been there done that already.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #29  
Go to the end of your owners manual and look at the parts picture or download on from HF website.

The engine has two ball bearing for mains. There are no bearings in the inverter. The only problems there could be rotor falling apart and binding or some piece of loose trash which got in. Try pulling over engine by hand and see if there is scraping noise from inverter. If not, it is probably OK. The inverter has only 1 cover to take off to see the inside.

Engine unlikely to pull over at all if a ball bearing failed which is unlikely. Problem is most likely piston, ring, or rod bearing. If no sign of oil burning when running rings probably OK. Piston could have overheated and is scuffed and dragging. Rod is aluminum with no bearing inserts, so aluminum pieces in oil for rod failure. What was the oil level when you drained it? Check oil with a magnet for steel ring pieces and a strainer for aluminum flakes from rod. Use a cheap borescope to check cylinder walls for piston scuffing and marks from broken ring. Lubricate the cylinder walls with light oil while spark plug is out and pull over by hand to see if it frees up. If it does free up, put in plug and start it and look for smoke, piston slap, and rod knock. You may find that you have diagnosed the problem. Put in 10-40 synthetic oil to run it.

You have to split the case to get at the rod bearing. Looks like you could do that with the engine in the frame, as the other half of the crankcase will hold it, when you remove the front cover. You should be able to take off the front cover easily as there is no cooling fan on that side. Fan is on the inverter rotor. To take out the piston and rod, you would have to remove the cylinder head. But you could check the rod bearing by removing the rod cap with just the front cover off.

Most likely, the problem is a rod bearing, but check for a scraping sound in the inverter to rule it out first. Rule out every other easy to get at cause before tearing apart

My experience with generators is that they have hard service, running constantly at high speed full load, especially when on construction sites The owner's manual calls for 10-30 oil which can burn easily running at temps over 80'F. Low oil kills the rod bearing. I always use 10-40 full synthetic oil in generators, gives you a bigger safety margin.



Also, compression relief failure will not make the engine hard to turn over at all points in a rotation, just when you are coming up on the compression stroke. A bad rod bearing or piston will drag through the whole rotation.

It sounds as if you have the background to do this. Good luck and let us know what you find.
 
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   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #30  
Warrantee was only 90 days. Not buying extended protection was a mistake.
Something I ALWAYS do with HF, I warrented my welders and Plasma Cutters for 3 years plus their one year warranty.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #31  
My son calls it Horrible Freight.
I don't. HF has really upped their game the last couple years. They still sell crap but they sell quality stuff as well. You just have to pay for it, like anything else.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #32  
I don’t see any point in tearing things apart until you know the cylinder isn’t dried out. If oil in the cylinder doesn’t help then go from there. That’s the one place you can put some lubrication with minimal effort.
 
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   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #33  
I have pretty much the same same generator, only whatever version from 10 or 15 years ago. I've only had it on the house once or twice and every other time it's doing chores with it. Like it's been mentioned the only way to figure it out is to take it apart or bite the bullet and take it to a shop.
I have an electric pole saw I use around the property (yeah over kill) and just general maintenance with drills and saws for repairs or projects so it doesn't get used a whole lot. I have it in an old Craftsman garden trailer so I can tow it any where with the tractor or mower. It basically only gets used an hour or too every year so I haven't had any issues with mine.

I think people are missing the point with HF, I'm not using it for a business and may only use what ever I do buy only briefly so I can't see buying something that costs 2 to 4 time more and by the time "the quality" product wears out they won't have any parts for it anyway. Been there done that already.
For home owners….i maybe can see using them. But really, to buy a hole hog drill and have it burn out after drilling out one house worth of holes to do the wiring is a useless tool in my opinion. Especially when my millwaukee hole hogs are nearly 30 years old and still going strong…all 3 of them.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #34  
I went to harbor freight ro get a few throw away hammers, some nitrile gloves and a look thru the store. Still, the only things i see there that i really like are their line of rolling tool boxes. Those are built real nice. I will not buy anything with a cord or a motor from this place.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #35  
I've read about draining the oil and checking for flakes and what not. Has the oil level been checked? if the fuel was left on wheil bouncing down the road in the bed of a pickup, the float in the carburetor bounces too, flooding the engine. If then left to sit for a day or two, that gas seeps past the rings and into the crankcase, therefor "overfilling" it, and thinning the oil, losing lubricity. I have had small engines come in for repair over the years with this being an issue. Most of them I could drain the oil and refill to correct levels and run it. Others had thinned the oil enough, and then run it, that the piston seized. Simple and free check, pull the dipstick, check the level, and smell it for gas, then go from there. Best of luck to you both!
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #36  
For home owners….i maybe can see using them. But really, to buy a hole hog drill and have it burn out after drilling out one house worth of holes to do the wiring is a useless tool in my opinion. Especially when my millwaukee hole hogs are nearly 30 years old and still going strong…all 3 of them.
Hole Hawgs are good but the Timberwolf is better because it doesn’t have the motor in the way and it has a safety clutch.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #37  
The newer Milwaukee hole hawgs have a clutch…me, i like living dangerously. Ive been using these for over 30+ years…. Only thrown off a ladder a few times.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #38  
The newer Milwaukee hole hawgs have a clutch…me, i like living dangerously. Ive been using these for over 30+ years…. Only thrown off a ladder a few times.
I built my first house in 1973. I have a hole Hawg But when I got the Timberwolf I used it more because of the better clearance it has. I haven’t lost control yet.
 
   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #39  
I went to harbor freight ro get a few throw away hammers, some nitrile gloves and a look thru the store. Still, the only things i see there that i really like are their line of rolling tool boxes. Those are built real nice. I will not buy anything with a cord or a motor from this place.
Like this?
 

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   / Harbor Freight Predator 8750 Watt Open-Frame Inverter Generator Troubleshooting ideas #40  
becids cheap parts I dont see this thing worth fixing. Your not going to replace the engine or generator.
 

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