Gutless CK20?

Massey1010 · May 20, 2007

I Just got my CK20, 2006 year, and have been trying it out but I've run across some problems that I'm thinking I have something really wrong with my tractor. I put a set of clamp on forks on the bucket and lifted an object on a pallet that weighs about 4-5 hundred pounds. The tractor seemed to lift it just fine but then when I wanted to move, the steering wheel would barely turn. I would turn it and the front wheels would very slowly turn and eventually catch part way up with the steering wheel. Is this typical of power steering when you have a load on the front? This seems most unacceptable to me.

The other problem is when I put a set of forks on the three point and tried to lift a pallet of salt bags that weighs aprox 600 lbs it would not lift it no matter how high I set the throttle without going above PTO speed. With no weight on the front other than the FEL I would expect it to try to lift anything and if it is too heavy the front end should come off the ground. My old Massey 1010 could move the pallet around and it's a smaller lighter tractor without an FEL.

The third problem was when I was shaving some sod off a high spot the tractor stopped and wouldn't go any further. No matter what forward position I pushed on the HST pedal it wouldn't budge. The wheels wouldn't even turn. I would be ok if they were spinning and I wasn't getting any traction but to just sit there and whine like a gutless wonder...

I'm afraid even with 4WD a 1940's Farmall could out pull me

Other than appearing to have a whimpy hydro pump, if that's the problem, this would be a super tractor. So before I take it in to the dealer I want to find out if this is normal behavior or am I expecting too much from this tractor? I really think it should be able to out perform my 1010 but so far I'm not impressed.

JerryG · May 20, 2007

1010,
I don't remember which transmission you had before but if it wasn't a hydro they sure are different. The pedal is the gears so to speak. The more you push down, the higher the gear. If the tractor starts to labor, let up on the pedal and or drop down a range if letting up on the pedal doesn't do it. There are a lot of new hydro owners that use the hydro pedal for a gas pedal and it doesn't work that way. It's something that isn't instinctive. If you knew all of this please disregard the above.

Massey1010 · May 20, 2007

I realize that the HST pedal position is similar to gears. What I don't get is why shouldn't the tires spin slowly if I only have the pedal pushed slightly? My tires haven't even been ballasted yet. I can just see that when I take it into the dealer to have it fixed I'm going to be told it is normal behavior or they are unable to find anything wrong with it. So I'm trying to find out if anyone else has experienced these same things with an HST CK20. When I take it in I want to be able to say that I've talked to other CK20 owners and they say this is not normal behavior.

joe48 · May 20, 2007

"The third problem was when I was shaving some sod off a high spot the tractor stopped and wouldn't go any further. No matter what forward position I pushed on the HST pedal it wouldn't budge."

I hate to ask and don't mean to be insulting but, that sounds like you were in high range. If you were in low range you may have been taking too big a bite, or caught on a root or rock.
With my CK20, I typically do ground engaging,back blabe , dirt scoop, york rake ,or loading FEL in low range between 2000-2500 rpm. If youre running like this and it still stalls the hydro either youre overloading(taking too big a bite) or you may have a problem with the pressure relief setting on the hydro. Your dealer should have the pressure guages and tools to test and adjust the relief settings, (this is a dealer job.)
Don't expect a hydro machine to act exactly like a gear drive. It won't just spin the tires when encountering excess load or stall like a gear machine, which is basically the "pressure relief" that protects a gear machine hopefully before you burn out the clutch or break something.
A hydro is THE choice for ground engaging work, mowing and other jobs that require alot of manuevering. Also when you have a number of different or inexperienced operators a hydro will save you alot of money on repairs, like clutch replacement and broken parts. This from experience when I had a number of loader tractors on a job I would be replacing clutches once a year or more, when I went to hydro or torque converter drives, no more repairs like that.

George2615 · May 20, 2007

Massey1010 said:
I Just got my CK20, 2006 year, and have been trying it out but I've run across some problems that I'm thinking I have something really wrong with my tractor. I put a set of clamp on forks on the bucket and lifted an object on a pallet that weighs about 4-5 hundred pounds. The tractor seemed to lift it just fine but then when I wanted to move, the steering wheel would barely turn. I would turn it and the front wheels would very slowly turn and eventually catch part way up with the steering wheel. Is this typical of power steering when you have a load on the front? This seems most unacceptable to me.

The other problem is when I put a set of forks on the three point and tried to lift a pallet of salt bags that weighs aprox 600 lbs it would not lift it no matter how high I set the throttle without going above PTO speed. With no weight on the front other than the FEL I would expect it to try to lift anything and if it is too heavy the front end should come off the ground. My old Massey 1010 could move the pallet around and it's a smaller lighter tractor without an FEL.

The third problem was when I was shaving some sod off a high spot the tractor stopped and wouldn't go any further. No matter what forward position I pushed on the HST pedal it wouldn't budge. The wheels wouldn't even turn. I would be ok if they were spinning and I wasn't getting any traction but to just sit there and whine like a gutless wonder... I'm afraid even with 4WD a 1940's Farmall could out pull me

Other than appearing to have a whimpy hydro pump, if that's the problem, this would be a super tractor. So before I take it in to the dealer I want to find out if this is normal behavior or am I expecting too much from this tractor? I really think it should be able to out perform my 1010 but so far I'm not impressed.

About your 1st problem. Are you using a counterweight / ballast on back? You probably need it. A counter weight will help take some weight off the front tires. Also make sure your tires are aired up. Another thing is you are lifting 4-500# on a set of forks out front. That puts more weight on the front end.

Problem 2 relates to the same thing. According to the site I looked at your 3Pt can lift 1109#. That is probably the rating at 24" out. You have put 600# plus a pallet on a set of forks that stick out probably 4' behind your 3 Pt arms. I'm guessing the forks, pallet and salt total about 8-900# but sticking out as far as they are multiplies the weight your 3Pt sees and its probably over your relief valve setting which won't allow you to lift it.
(relate this to yourself by holding a 5# bag of sugar in your hand close to your body. No problem right. I'm sure you could lift it over your head a few times. Now hold your hand straight out and place the 5# sugar bag on your hand and see how long it feels like a 5# weight. After 30 seconds at full arms length try to lift the bag straight up. The leverage will be against you doing this). Leverage affects your loader and 3Pt the same way.

Problem 3 may have been answered. Use your lowest range for this task.

Dmace · May 20, 2007

Have you checked the hydraulic fluid? Maybe it's a little low.

When using the FEL, I run it at around 2200-2300 rpms and even with a good load in the loader like the wood in my avatar or a large rock, the tires have no problem turning with ease. Maybe the tires were up beside a rock or something. Either way, something is not right, these little tractors are incredibly powerful.

Bob_Young · May 20, 2007

I don't know the CK20 from beans, Massey, but problem #3 wouldn't be normal for my HST Kubota B7610. I've been pulling out tree roots using the rippers on my BB. When I hit one that's too big, it sits there and spins the wheels. I'm in 4WD low when I do this.

The other problems don't sound right either. My Kubotas will lift the front wheels if the 3PH load is too heavy...and I don't need more than idle RPM to do it. I have noticed that steering can get quite stiff when a heavy load is in the bucket, but the wheels keep up with the steering wheel....of course the Kioti may be designed differently.

Sounds like something is limiting the performance of your hydraulic system.
Bob

Massey1010 · May 20, 2007

Thanks for the info. I was in low range when doing all this work. The guy that delivered the tractor said to always use low range unless I was traveling down the road.

So am I correct in understanding that an HST tractor will not spin tires unless the ground is slippery?

I'm going to go ahead and give my dealer a call since I believe that something has got to be wrong with it. I could see if I was stepping from a larger tractor down to the CK20 I might be expecting too much but since I'm just comparing it to my smaller 1010 I think I have a right to expect a little more out of it.

---

ro·tis·ser·ie n', A Ferris wheel for chickens.

Dmace · May 21, 2007

Massey1010 said:
So am I correct in understanding that an HST tractor will not spin tires unless the ground is slippery?

It depends on the machine really. If you don't have enough weight for the power of your machine then yeah, it will spin the tires. I have a loader, backhoe and loaded tires (+500lbs) and she will hit the relief before spinning the tires. With the backhoe removed and no load in the FEL, just grading with the bucket, it will spin the tires when digging too much.

Don't let fools tell you that spinning tires is a measure of how much power a tractor has, it is instead a measure of how little weight it has. If your tires are spinning then you are losing power to the ground instead of performing work.

joe48 · May 21, 2007

I would suggest you contact the dealers service mgr. and ask him to come out to your place and watch you run it and give you advice, then have him run it so he can experience the issues first hand and decide what the malfunction is and so you can see the proper operating techniques.
This will go a long way to determine if there's a machine or operator problem or a combination of both.
The dealer should be more than willing to help you out this way. If not go to the owner, if they are competent and truly interested in their customers then they will be more than happy to help. A machine dealer depends on relations, service, repeat sales , for his livelyhood. If not he won't last long.
Also you could forward this thread to the Kioti national customer service mgr., for his reaction and to make him aware of the issue. When I did that I got good response from Kioti, (my dealer has been very good)
( backgound; I was service mgr for a major Honda,M-B, BMW dealer, so BTDT)
Good Luck, Joe

darkviper · May 21, 2007

Massy

i have a CK 20 with about 356 hours on it. A few things. AS far as the steering issue. This is going to happen if you have a load on the front and are not moving. Never try to steer a tractor with a load on the FEL while the machine is still. Iv seen the same thing hapen on 80+ HP machines. When lifting with the 3Point Hitch. Make sure that you draft control is set to wide open. If it is closed some this will also cause it not to lift as good. AS for the tires not spining, trust me you will come to love this about the machine when in wet or soft soil as it will not break traction and then you are stuck cause it is spining. Do not fret the machine will get stronger after about 200 hours once the engine gets a chance to break in. I thought mine was weak at first. Now it breaks traction when it loads down hard unless i have a huge load behind it. The less you push on the pedal the more power you will have. The harder once it loads down the quicker the tractor will die down. There is a big difference between gear drive and HYdro. But once yu learn the dos and donts with the HYDRO you will not want anything else. Sorry if i have insulted you inteligence on any of this but i dont know what it is you now and dont

malk315 · May 21, 2007

I have a CK20HST w/ about 65 hours, original owner. I can't comment on 3 point stuff as I only have an adaptor for moving my 16' trailer around -- never an issue there except one time I forgot I was in high range trying to back the trailer up a bit of a grade. The 3 point arms have a small sleeve on each on my setup that operate rock shafts to pick up my MMM which is about 350-400 lbs -- so really no comparison to stuff hanging off the back. Never an issue there.

As far as loader work goes, I've moved 8 yards of loam, and 9 tons of 3/4" crushed stone from my paved driveway where the material was delivered to where I needed it to fill holes and make an approach to the new door on my shed I just installed so I can finally put the tractor in there now that winter is over

of course the goal was to get it in there for winter, not summer.

I have loaded turf tires. All of the work was done in 2wd as I didn't need the traction on the driveway. No spin, and really no major effort for the tractor to get into each pile. Just scoop and go. All low range.

I'm very good at making sure I'm moving when turning the wheel w/ loaded bucket -- I used to have a Toro Wheel horse 315 w/ kwik-way loader and no power steering, having power steering for loader work is nice. On a few occasions, my timing of turning the wheel a bit early before moving happened, and all I noticed was the wheels would keep up (seeing skid marks on driveway a bit) and the engine taking the load and working hard moving the wheels, but not the problem you describe. Perhaps turfs a little easier to skid on pavement or whatever than R4's or ags. I'm not sure how heavy the loads I was working with were, but I was able to take too big of a bite w/ the 3/4" stone when being in the bottom of the pile when the pile was still towards 9 tons. I just backed up an inch or two and the loader would muscle right through it.

If I get some 50lb bags of whatever (lime, plant stuff, etc), I'll do an experiment to see how many I can take before the loader stresses lifting it.

In my opinion, you have something that isn't right (I could be completely wrong, just reading story makes me thing something isn't right) -- are any TBN'ers nearby you? -- i.e. if you were near me I'd be happy to let you come by and get into my pile of extra loam just to see how mine compares...

Best of luck getting your issues resolved and be sure to let us know the outcome.

Massey1010 · May 21, 2007

I was not aware that you cannot turn the wheel on a tractor with PS if you are not moving. Doesn't seem right but if that's normal I can work around that limitation.

It sounds like the control valve for the 3Pt has an effect on how much you can lift? On my old tractor it only controlled the drop speed and had no affect on the amount of weight I could lift. I turned the valve down since the drop speed was too fast and jerky. I will open it up and see if that makes a difference.

Of course it is undesirable to spin the tires but I was surprised that mine wouldn't do that since it was empty. I could see it not doing that if the tires had ballast and I had a ballast box or other heavy implement on the 3pt.

Egon · May 21, 2007

To me something is not right. Not being familiar with the tractor I can't help in finding the solution.

JerryG · May 21, 2007

I can see the wheels not turning under certain situations, but it shouldn't be that way all the time. The relief valve can be turned up to give you more pressure. It wouldn't take but a couple of hundred pounds to make a lot of difference.

bountyhunter · May 21, 2007

Not any of the problems you are talking about with my CK30, however we haven't pushed either the FEL or 3pt anywhere close to their limits yet. The power steering works great with a full load of dirt in the FEL, but it is dry dirt and not pushing the weight limit.

Good luck what ever it is, but the suggestion of having the dealer out to show him what's going on sounds like a great idea.

wnymudd · May 22, 2007

Try this thread. It was just discussed at length in the Mahindra section. Sounds like the same type of problem.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/mahindra/93576-2015hst.html?highlight=pressure

LoganWildman · May 22, 2007

Talk to the dealer, something doesn't sound right to me.

CBB · May 23, 2007

I have the CK20 and the other day I was backing up a pond bank with a brush hog on. I still had traction (loaded tires) but not enough power to keep going up the steep embankment.

I thought that it really is a shame the CK20 did not have some more power. It does almost everything I want and is small enough to fit down the rows or my first answer would be buy a bigger tractor or if I had a gear tractor it would just keep backing until it stalled or tires slipped.

I wish there was an adjustment or make a modification where I could just give the CK20 about 5-8 more HP! Where are the "I want to supe up my tractor" mods? Then it would be perfect for my needs. I still rate it a 7.5 out of 10 and would buy it again--but only because I have not found any 8's, 9's or 10's out there!

Dmace · May 23, 2007

CBB said:
I wish there was an adjustment or make a modification where I could just give the CK20 about 5-8 more HP!

It is a diesel, so more hp is only a few psi of fuel pressure away. I don't think the limiting factor is hp though, I think it is the low relief valves. It would be nice to increase the limit of the hydro tranny. I would love to test a gear tractor vs a HST to see if it makes any difference.