Oil & Fuel Gas Tank

[ldabe]

Saturday Evening was forecasting a heavy amount of snow, so I went to make sure my tractor (422) and truck were full of fluids, and tried to start them up.

The truck had a dead battery. Jumped it and it started up.
Put the Snow Bear snow blade on...ready to plow 1600 feet of drive.

The 422 cranked and cranked until the battery began to die down. Jumped it, still cranked and cranked but no start.
Used 'starting fluid' and cranked the crap out of it some more! After doing this (outside temp was around 37 degrees, 422 kept in a 3 sided and roofed pole barn, no door) for quite sometime, numerous times, it finally started. Man! Is this thing a cold starter or what? Anyone else have this problem when the temps dropped down below 50 degrees?

After letting it run for about 15 min. I did some lifting and moving with it for about 10 min., then let it run for another 15 min. while I jockeyed things around in my attached garage (not heated, but insulated same as the house) to put the 422 into.

Now for the "gas tank".

The gas tank did not have a shut off valve on it, and I remember reading in either the Robin manual or the Power Trac manual that it should have one. So I put one on before the beginning of summer.

I have had the 422 in my garage before, when I didn't have the gas shut off valve, and there was a very strong odor of gas, very strong.
After putting the shut off valve on, and turning it off after the engine shut down, there is still a very noticeable odor of gas, but not nearly as bad as without the shut off valve.

Question? Does anyone else get this very noticeable smell of gas?

Is this smell just from what is left in the carb?
Can it be corrected?

 

[duane]

Same cold start problem. I had the recall on the ignition coils, so now now at least it starts under 40F. Two magnetic heaters on the bottom of the hydraulic reservoir, and a kerosene torpedo heater blowing into the engine compartment. Crank over for about 5 seconds then back fires. Crank over some more, couple more backfires and then finally get it running. These are not small backfires either, sounds like a 12 gage shotgun. The cold oil hydraulic load on the engine while starting is pretty large. Wish there was a better way.

 

[MossRoad]

I have a 2001 model year PT425 with the Kohler engine. I have started with no problems down to -5. No preheating of the engine or hydraulics.

As for gas smell. I keep it in a shed. Never had a smell of gas.

 

[MuncyBob]

I have the Robin in my 422...cold(less than 25 in a non heated garage) is slower starting than normal but nothing like you guys state! I have never had the gas odor problem either...seems strange the same engines have such different situations!

 

[DHS]

My 422 is a hard starter below 30 degrees. I slide a 115v electric heater under the rear portion of my tractor and cover the rear portion with a tarp and old blanket. It starts easily after an hour or two of heat down to 20 below zero. I believe my gas smell comes from the inferior gas cap and resulting spillage.

36 Inch Portable Convection Heater - SENUSEC36 | Wholesale Electrical Supply Company

Dale

 

[ponytug]

Just my $0.02 here, but I wouldn't want to have equipment that has noticeable fuel vapors coming off of it. For some reason engine fires leap to mind. Wherever the leak is, cap, tank, lines, filter, carb, I'd put in a little time to find it and fix it.

I'm also surprised at the variation in starting. I wonder if it something systematic, like differences in spark plug gaps, or coil/lead performance.

I'd expect a normal Kohler to catch within a few seconds down to freezing, a bit longer if it was 0.

When you have the cold start problem, do you smell lots of gas in the exhaust, like the engine is flooding? If you do, have you checked the gap on your spark plug?

Diesels are a different story. My 1445 takes perhaps twice as long at 40F to start, and when it does, it seems like there's a cold cylinder for 30 seconds or so. Twice as long being ~7 seconds of cranking.

Still, it seems rude to me to ask a diesel to start without prewarming the glow plugs.

All the best,

Peter

 

[pajoube]

I have the 2003 425 with Kohler engine. I do use a block heater on the oil tank but other than that nothing. With temps getting into the -10 to -25 it will start after a few turns. Must wait about 10 to 15 minutes to get warmed up before starting to plow. No gas fumes ever.
PJ

 

[ldabe]

I agree Peter, that is why I don't want anything around it to possibly ignite those fumes.
I have not checked the gap lately, it was correct when put in at beginning of the summer.
Shouldn't plugs last at least a year?!
Now that you mention it, I do believe it gets a slight smell of 'flooding'. I will check the plugs.

Moss Road,
From all the input we get from you, I believe the Kohler engine is a much better engine than the Robin, hands down!
I have a 1974 Wheelhorse rider with a 16hp Kohler, and man that thing runs great! You never have to worry about the weather and it starting, and I don't take care of it even 50% as well as I baby the PT 422. In fact, you could say I neglect and abuse it.

By the way, if
Jack Robin
sees this, I would appreciate his input ;~)
(Just thought of something, if the Robin is really a Subaru, why don't they even come close to operating like a Honda, including the quietness?)

Check this out from the Subaru/Robin site:
Standard Features:
• Easy Start
• High Power & Performance
• Great Reliability & Durability
• Long Life
• Low Emissions, meeting EPA Phase 2
& CARB Tier II requirements
• Quiet Running, with low noise,
rust resistant mufflers
• Easy Maintenance
• 2-Year Limited Manufacturer’s Warranty
from Subaru Robin

"Easy Start" and "Quiet running"! Come on, not from the testimonies you read on here.

So again, it is probably a stretch to also say "Great Reliability & Durability ". Just before mine turned over to 300 hrs. (it is a 2003) I had to have the ignition coils replaced.

Oh! And for Easy Maintenance", not really. But I cannot blame that on Subaru/Robin, Power Trac was the one who jammed it down into a 'coffin' so tight that you can barely get one hand in between the engine and the 'coffin box'.

I have said it before and I will say it again, "When the PT in operating the way it should, it is hard to beat; but when it doesn't, it will feel like it beat the crap out of you."

 

[ponytug]

I agree that a gap should last a few hundred hours. Out of curiousity, how were the plugs when you last looked at them? i.e. did it look like they were running hot/cold/rich/lean? Plugs can be very informative.

By the way, you might also want to pull a spark plug lead and make sure that there is a reasonable spark.

Have you checked to see if the air filter is clean? (It would help flood the engine, if it isn't...)

All the best,

Peter

 

[Rara Avis]

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/

Click on TRUCK ACCESSORIES
Click on OIL PAN HEATER

 

[ldabe]

By the way, if
Jack Robin
sees this, I would appreciate his input ;~)
(Just thought of something, if the Robin is really a Subaru, why don't they even come close to operating like a Honda, including the quietness?)

Since Jack Robin has not answered about the difference in Subaru and Honda, I was wondering if anyone else had any input?

I know the Subaru (Robin eng.) company started a few years after Honda, but since they both are Japanese engines, why does the Honda seem to be such a better quality made, and always quieter than the Subaru's (Robin)?

I have never owned a Honda engine, but I have used many at my work place, and have rented a couple (ie. generator, post hole digger, etc.) and they just seem to out perform other engines.

Is this just my perception, or does anyone else see it this way also?

 

[J_J]

Since Jack Robin has not answered about the difference in Subaru and Honda, I was wondering if anyone else had any input?

I know the Subaru (Robin eng.) company started a few years after Honda, but since they both are Japanese engines, why does the Honda seem to be such a better quality made, and always quieter than the Subaru's (Robin)?

I have never owned a Honda engine, but I have used many at my work place, and have rented a couple (ie. generator, post hole digger, etc.) and they just seem to out perform other engines.

Is this just my perception, or does anyone else see it this way also?

I think the difference is the tolerances on the engine parts that make the difference, but you have to pay 1/2 to 2/3 more for a good reliable engine. I use both Honda, and Kohler, and they seem about equal in operation, and longevity. I think PT is using the Robin, because they got a good deal on the engines, and they can still get the same price for a Robin powered PT. I like my Ford industrial 4 cylinder that is in my PT. It was probably a test bed for the earlier PT's. It is quite, and has never bogged down. The hydraulics start to groan if I over work it. I don't think Jack is allowed to compare the quality of the two engines, although he probably knows the truth.

Honda is probably the only manufacture that puts a fuel shut off on all there engines, and a carb bowl bleed screw , both are a good thing.

 

[Gravy]

My internet research before I bought my PT actually indicated that Robin engines are overall even MORE reliable than Hondas. Rental companies in particular loved the Robin engines. HOWEVER: I suspect that data applies mostly to the single cylinder models. My personal experience with a Robin 25hp engine leads me to believe that it is basically a good engine, but that it isn't as well developed as the singles. It doesn't like to start when it's cold, it has fuel delivery problems, I had an oil cooler hose blow off, and I've had several air filter failures (filters leaking dust into the engine instead of plugging). It still works, but it could be better.

Given that Robin is a division of Subaru and evidently WANTS to be a quality leader, I'm confident that the bugs will get worked out and the v-twins will eventually be great engines. However, with the convoluted legal system in this country, I doubt that Robin/Subaru will be officially admitting to any flaws in the existing engines in our PT's. If they did, some attorney would be demanding that they recall every engine they've sold in the last 50 years...

I'm pretty sure that PT uses the Robin engine because it costs significantly less and the quality is acceptable. PT seems to be a "bang-for-the-buck" kind of company. The difference in refinement and noise probably doesn't offset the cost difference. The PT-built "muffler" is evidence that noise level isn't a concern at PT. It would be hard to hear the difference between a Honda and a Robin with that abomination installed on both.

IIRC, the published power/torque curves indicate that the Robin 25hp really does produce a bit more power than the Honda 24hp. Kohler has some engines that do better, but they are a lot more expensive than either the Robin or Honda. The idea of a hotrod 4xx machine is cool, but I doubt that PT would sell enough of them to justify the expense.

Gravy

 

[Phils]

Since this thread has wandered off topic already, I'm curious if anybody knows whether Suburu changed anything when they bought Robin from Wisconsin? When I worked at an auto parts store years ago, we were one of the only parts suppliers in town for the Wisconsin Robin engines and although I looked at many Robin parts books, I didn't have much to do with the actual motors and don't know if they are the same or different now with "new" ownership.

Phil

 

[ldabe]

Since this thread has wandered off topic already, I'm curious if anybody knows whether Suburu changed anything when they bought Robin from Wisconsin? When I worked at an auto parts store years ago, we were one of the only parts suppliers in town for the Wisconsin Robin engines and although I looked at many Robin parts books, I didn't have much to do with the actual motors and don't know if they are the same or different now with "new" ownership.

Phil

Phil, I hope Jack sees this thread and chimes in.
I believe he would be the best one to answer your question and mine.

To get back on the topic of the "gas tank", the odor of gas has went down considerably since I turned off the gas cock I had installed, and a couple days went by.

So, I am assuming that the strong odor was from what was left in the carb after shut down.

 

[ponytug]

I'm glad you found a way to cut the gas leak down! Plus it is a great safety feature to have.

If shutting the fuel line helps, I would suspect that all is not totally well with your carburetor. Either gasoline is leaking out of the bowl due to a bad seal somewhere, or the float valve is leaking, or at least leaking when there is no air running through it. The former is a fire hazard, the latter, poor fuel economy, gasoline in your oil, and perhaps some carbonizing of your engine.

All the best,

Peter

Phil, I hope Jack sees this thread and chimes in.
I believe he would be the best one to answer your question and mine.

To get back on the topic of the "gas tank", the odor of gas has went down considerably since I turned off the gas cock I had installed, and a couple days went by.

So, I am assuming that the strong odor was from what was left in the carb after shut down.

 

[ca956]

Ldabe,

I feel your pain !!! I have a PT-425 with Robin engine (350 hrs). It will not start below 50 degrees. I have voiced this concern once before, see thread "happy or unhappy" . I found it manditory to have one of my workers "babysit" the PT with a torpedo heater blowing on it every morning to make sure it would start. I have the same gas smell as you described. With mine it is not a leak, it is a flooding condition cause by the engine not starting. I have tried new plugs, hi-octane fuel and adjusting the rocker arm clearence. None of this has made a difference. My beleif is that the problem lay in the timing conditions of the engine. Either cam timing and/or ignition timing. However I have not yet found a way to adjust either. Between my father and myself we have at least a dozen pieces of equipment ranging from 60+ horspower tractors to 3 horse power pushmower. Out of all these machines the PT is the one that will never start. I own a 5.5 (HONDA) horse power "Little Beaver" posthole digger, that is aleast 10 years old. This machine rides in the back of the truck and is left at the job site with a wheelbarrel over it to protect from the elements. It can sit for days, weeks or months and with 1 or 2 pulls IT WILL START !!! It always starts.
The PT was purchased to replace the "Little Beaver". On more than one occasion the "Little Beaver" has been pulled back into service because the PT
would not start.

 

[ponytug]

I won't mention taking it to a Kohler dealer, because if it were an option, I assume you would have tried it. These engines should start just fine to 0F. Once it is running does it run OK?

Get the service manual. You probably want to check the air filter, but I am sure you have checked/cleaned it. With it off, you probably want to check the choke operation. If you don't have a bad float, this is probably your problem. Then check the adjustment of the gas jets. If you smell gas, you know you have too much fuel going in, so you can start by shutting the main jet down, if the choke checked out OK.

You mention checking the timing- did you actually strobe it to check TDC, or just the adjustment? If you are getting a reasonable spark when you crank it, it would be a rare failure.

I am somewhat concerned that there is some systematic problem, like a leaking float in a production run of these engines.

Keep us posted.

All the best,

Peter

Idabe,

I feel your pain !!! I have a PT-425 with Robin engine (350 hrs). It will not start below 50 degrees. I have voiced this concern once before, see thread "happy or unhappy" . I found it manditory to have one of my workers "babysit" the PT with a torpedo heater blowing on it every morning to make sure it would start. I have the same gas smell as you described. With mine it is not a leak, it is a flooding condition cause by the engine not starting. I have tried new plugs, hi-octane fuel and adjusting the rocker arm clearence. None of this has made a difference. My beleif is that the problem lay in the timing conditions of the engine. Either cam timing and/or ignition timing. However I have not yet found a way to adjust either. Between my father and myself we have at least a dozen pieces of equipment ranging from 60+ horspower tractors to 3 horse power pushmower. Out of all these machines the PT is the one that will never start. I own a 5.5 (HONDA) horse power "Little Beaver" posthole digger, that is aleast 10 years old. This machine rides in the back of the truck and is left at the job site with a wheelbarrel over it to protect from the elements. It can sit for days, weeks or months and with 1 or 2 pulls IT WILL START !!! It always starts.
The PT was purchased to replace the "Little Beaver". On more than one occasion the "Little Beaver" has been pulled back into service because the PT
would not start.

 

[J_J]

I believe that Idabe has a Robin engine, and there is no way to adjust the timing, because timing is set or increased electronically as the rpm increases.

On the fuel thing, If your tank is above your engine, it is a must that you have a fuel shutoff valve installed. When you remove your gas cap, do you get expelled air, or do you hear a vacuum hiss? If you are getting expelled air, the pressure might be over riding the needle valve in the crab bowl, and forcing fuel into the engine, and therefore fumes, and thinning out the oil.
The manual also mentions something about a cold start enrichment system. You would have to ask your dealer/mechanic about that.

 

[cqaigy2]

I've got a 422 with the robins engine in it. It doesn't get very cold so i think it was about 25 degrees is the coldest its been when ive started it up. That's with a full charge on the battery cause the battery is kinda weak.