Front rims/lug bolts on 4115

[micdelbo]

Multiple searches of this sight and Google showed nothing on the problem I am having with my front rims on my JD 4115.

I purchased my JD used with 236 hours on it about 5 years ago. I have always had to tighten the right front wheel bolts every few months. It seems like whenever I do any substantial loader work, the bolts will loosen slightly. This in turn caused the bolt holes in the rims to wear a little oval. Tightening the bolts seemed to keep everything working okay but obviously the wheel was worn.

So this past winter I went to tighten the bolts and one of them would not budge, on or off and the head sheared off. So, I tightened the other 3 and plowed the one snowfall we had. Parked the unit and forgot about it until this week when I went to roto-till to plant peas.

I noticed the wheel was a little wobbly and inspected it. See attached pic.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...215210-front-rims-lug-bolts-4115-jd-wheel.jpg

I went to remove the remaining 3 bolts and 2 came out no problem, the third wouldn't budge. I have an IR 650 ft./lbs. impact gun and it usually takes out most any bolt/nut. What was really weird was if I put the gun's torque setting in the middle and tightened the bolt, it would move a little, but to then go in reverse at the full 650 wouldn't budge. Finally the head sheared off the last bolt.

The rim actually cracked and pieces came off, so I will need to replace it. The other rim is cracked as well, so I ordered 2.

To get the broken bolts out I had to remove the front spindle and take the wheel to a friend who is a machinist. We first tried welding a 9/16 x 18 nut onto the protruding bolts, (now studs), and heating the spindle. They would not budge to come out. We could get them to tighten about 1/8 turn and then they would stop and go out about the same and stop. He couldn't believe it. We had the spindle glowing red and ended up twisting the welded on nuts right off.

We finally ended up cutting the studs off, center punching them and drilling them out gradually with incremental drill sizes on a press. Unlike many bolts that will usually unscrew very easily when drilled, these were very difficult. It took a lot of very easy chisel work to get the remainder of the bolt out. What we found was that a few of the threads on the cast spindle actually "split" and were acting as a form of wedge causing the split threads to ramp up onto the threads still attached to the spindle. He had a term for this condition which I can't recall. This of course boogered up the threads. Of course they are metric, so we simply made them 9/16 x 18 fine thread with a tap.

I removed the left wheel and noticed that even though the bolts were tight, the rim is split a little and the holes are slightly rounded. No where near the extent of the right side though and I have never had to tighten this side. See pic #2.http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258669&stc=1&d=1333219101

I believe the cracked rims are a result of the extra weight imposed by the loader and material being handled. I also believe the rounded out holes in the rims are a result of the bolt heads not being tapered. If this is the case, I feel it is a poor design.

I have 2 thoughts on how to finish this up. First is to simply use 9/16 x 18 bolts with lock washers on the new rims and check them more frequently. This would basically be the same as the stock setup.

My other thought is to trash the bolt/lock washer setup and instead install 9/16 x 18 tapered head lug bolts. I have to wait to get the rims to see how much of the head taper will go into the holes and if needed to drill the holes out slightly. I believe this will help keep the rims tighter to the spindle than the stock setup by not allowing the wheel to move as the torque of the MFWD is applied to the spindle.

I am undecided on which to do. I usually have high confidence in the engineering of products by companies, especially JD. If the problem I am having is due to me or the previous owner not torquing the bolts enough, then I will go to the OEM bolt/lock washer setup. On the other hand, I think the tapered bolt head is also a good idea. Although a lock washer cannot be installed in this case.

So, has anyone had or currently have split rims on their unit? If not, what are your thoughts.

Any input is appreciated.

Mike

 

[beenthere]

Yup, time for some new rims, and I'd get new bolts too.
Bummer.
But would suspect the problem happened with loose bolts, and just couldn't be corrected by subsequent tightening.
New rims and right size bolts kept tight will likely handle all the work with FEL that is done.
I don't think you need to improve on the design, just keep the bolts tight which someone didn't do early on.

 

[Zebrafive]

I would look into studs and nuts, nuts with a taper as cars and trucks use if the wheels match up. If not then flanged nuts to spread the load.
If there is room for nuts on the back side of the spindles, I would use long enough studs to go thru and put a lock nut on the back side.

 

[rsewill]

I agree that the bolts were allowed to get loose too often and that you will be fine if you keep them tight. It is a poor design, not having studs and tapered holes. You want studs because it is common to remove the tire/rim and then put it back on but if you have bolts then you will eventually have problems with the threads in the hubs. With studs you just replace the studs and you're good to go.

 

[micdelbo]

I agree that the bolts were allowed to get loose too often and that you will be fine if you keep them tight. It is a poor design, not having studs and tapered holes. You want studs because it is common to remove the tire/rim and then put it back on but if you have bolts then you will eventually have problems with the threads in the hubs. With studs you just replace the studs and you're good to go.

I would look into studs and nuts, nuts with a taper as cars and trucks use if the wheels match up. If not then flanged nuts to spread the load.
If there is room for nuts on the back side of the spindles, I would use long enough studs to go thru and put a lock nut on the back side.

I agree that the current bolt/lock nuts loosened up and caused the damage on the right side. I tightened them at least 12-15 times. It seemed as though they loosened up so quickly or frequently that there has to be some sort of design flaw.

Then I ponder the left side. I never had to tighten the bolts. The first time the wheel was removed was to take the picture for this post and the bolt holes are ovaled out and the wheel is cracked. That tells me the wheel is moving slightly on the axle as the driveline goes from forward to reverse in fwd. Though I did not check the torque, I did remove 2 of the bolts on the left front with a lug wrench. They were plenty tight. It took plenty of snot to break them loose.

So I am guessing no one else has had this happen to their rims? That is my question.

I am seriously considering studs or longer tapered bolts with nuts on the back side.

Mike

 

[beenthere]

You might need to check if these are the correct rims for your tractor. Not knowing what the previous owner did, and possibly could have picked up rims/tires from a different model.
Can't for a minute believe that it was designed to float like you suspect happened.
Wrong rims or bolts were loose and the previous operator worked the tractor to round out the holes.
I'd bet new rims and new bolts and you will be good to go. But that choice is certainly yours to make.

 

[kirbygiampa]

The pictures of the wheels don't look like the ones on my 4115. I use my loader and backhoe often and have never had to tighten any bolts on the wheels. check that wheel. Good Luck.

 

[beenthere]

Can some 4115 owners post pics of their front rims?

That might help micdelbo zero in on his problem.

 

[Deere Dude]

When you get the new rims and tapered bolts or nuts, consider using blue locktite on them and torque them correctly. They will still come off when you want them to but they won't vibrate or loosen up when they aren't supposed to.

 

[micdelbo]

You might need to check if these are the correct rims for your tractor. Not knowing what the previous owner did, and possibly could have picked up rims/tires from a different model.
Can't for a minute believe that it was designed to float like you suspect happened.
Wrong rims or bolts were loose and the previous operator worked the tractor to round out the holes.
I'd bet new rims and new bolts and you will be good to go. But that choice is certainly yours to make.

I have 2 new rims on order from JD so we will see if they are different.

When you get the new rims and tapered bolts or nuts, consider using blue locktite on them and torque them correctly. They will still come off when you want them to but they won't vibrate or loosen up when they aren't supposed to.

This is a definite!

 

[beenthere]

We look forward to seeing the new rims too. Not fun to have the old ones split out like that.

 

[scrappy isb67]

I agree that the bolts were allowed to get loose too often and that you will be fine if you keep them tight. It is a poor design, not having studs and tapered holes. You want studs because it is common to remove the tire/rim and then put it back on but if you have bolts then you will eventually have problems with the threads in the hubs. With studs you just replace the studs and you're good to go.

the rims are supposed to be hubcentric(the center pilot hole fits tightly on the hub to carry the weight) and just use the lugs for rotational force and to retain the wheel. the tapered seat lugs are for lug centric (the lugs carry the weight) you might have difficulty using tapered seat lugs with the hubcentric wheels. if the holes in the rims aren't almost perfectly concentric with the pilot hole the tapered lugs could bind up and fail. there is also the possibility that the flange that the lugs thread into could fail due to the additional loading on them from the tapered lugs.

 

[micdelbo]

Well the wheels came in yesterday and I swapped the tires off and on today and got the wheels back on.

First 2 pics are of the the new left wheel with the original lug bolts and the original wheel that was on the left side:

Last two pics are the new wheel and tapered head 9/6-18x1-1/8 fine thread lug bolts with lock nuts on rear and original right wheel.


The new wheels are a different design than the ones I took off, they are stamped with more of a recess for the axle and of course don't have the taper a car wheel has, but like scrappy said,

"the rims are supposed to be hubcentric(the center pilot hole fits tightly on the hub to carry the weight) and just use the lugs for rotational force and to retain the wheel. the tapered seat lugs are for lug centric (the lugs carry the weight) you might have difficulty using tapered seat lugs with the hubcentric wheels. if the holes in the rims aren't almost perfectly concentric with the pilot hole the tapered lugs could bind up and fail. there is also the possibility that the flange that the lugs thread into could fail due to the additional loading on them from the tapered lugs."

The JD dealer explained it the same way and said the problem is due to not keeping the lug bolts tight. I have a lug wrench right next to where I park the unit to make sure we do not have a repeat problem.

I did put on the 242 loctite and used the crimp type lock nuts on the back side of the bolts. The tapered head on the lug bolts probably are not contributing much, so I am anxious to see if the lock nuts help. If these come loose I will be surprised, but we will see.

Last pics are of the newest addition, a Tilman 6x12 low profile dump with the 4115 inside. Chain locations are not optimum but will work until I install D-rings.

I am happy the 4115 fits inside the trailer. I went to the dealer with a Deckover dump in mind, but could not pass up on the deal he gave me on this trailer. I would have to buy an equipment trailer as well as the dump. Not optimum for hauling the 4115, but I really only haul it maybe once or twice a year. I have been borrowing a friends dump truck 5-10 times a year, so the dump trailer will be nice.

Mike

 

[beenthere]

Those just look much better.
One way I keep track of lug bolts or stud nuts loosening is to put a small felt tip pen mark on the head and rim. That way just a glance will let you know if they have moved any.
Looks like you are good to go.

 

[rsewill]

The new rims sure look like a better quality rim. I think you have a permanent fix! And the trailer looks great.