Bob Rooks
Elite Member
I'm sure you meant hydraulic pump seal.
Foton 250a Run Away Engine/Crankcase filling
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greg_g
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Nope, but I did make a mental error typing. Too late to edit out the original mistake. It should have said "a damaged injection pump seal can permit diesel fuel to flow from the pump through the gear housing and into the engine crankcase." That said, the same thing applies to engine driven (as opposed to PTO driven) hydraulic pumps. A damaged hydraulic pump seal can permit hydraulic fluid to flow from the pump through the gear housing and into the engine crankcase as well.I'm sure you meant hydraulic pump seal.
//greg//
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Now I see. You meant the injection pump camshaft seal. In all probability that would never happen because any pressure developed to overcome the spring on the lip of that seal would also have fuel spewing from the vent and/or dipstick. But I will concede that it's not an impossibility. On engines with engine lubricated fuel injection pumps how do you detect fuel dilution of the oil, understanding that if you can smell it in the oil it's probably too late?
RonMar
Elite Member
How do you detect fuel dilution in the oil? With a lube oil dilution test of course It is a temperature compensated falling ball viscosity test comparing a hot sample from the crankcase with a sample of new uncontaminated oil. Tester gets heated to same temp as engine oil. If the ball in the oil falls at a certain rate faster than the control sample, it is overly contaminated and it gets changed out. On a larger plant or one with multiple engines, it gets connected to the lube oil purifier(high speed self cleaning centrifuge with water wash) and all the engine oil cycles thru it to strip off the excess fuel and the crud accumulation.
I agree it would have to be a really bad IP shaft seal, to first drain away the IP lube oil then carry away the buildup of fuel oil. this would however keep a buildup of fuel in the IP from causing it to overflow out of it's vents. On a pressure lubed IP, this wouldn't even take a bad seal to induce fuel into the lube oil...
It is a temperature compensated falling ball viscosity test comparing a hot sample from the crankcase with a sample of new uncontaminated oil. Tester gets heated to same temp as engine oil. If the ball in the oil falls at a certain rate faster than the control sample, it is overly contaminated and it gets changed out. On a larger plant or one with multiple engines, it gets connected to the lube oil purifier(high speed self cleaning centrifuge with water wash) and all the engine oil cycles thru it to strip off the excess fuel and the crud accumulation. I agree it would have to be a really bad IP shaft seal, to first drain away the IP lube oil then carry away the buildup of fuel oil. this would however keep a buildup of fuel in the IP from causing it to overflow out of it's vents. On a pressure lubed IP, this wouldn't even take a bad seal to induce fuel into the lube oil...
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
This is the falling ball comparator you referenced. I borrowed one off a ship a few years ago to make this test (they are almost non-existent anymore, and quite expensive if you do find one).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzTWWPk3zm4
Many years ago when I ran the oil analysis lab for the thirteenth Coast Guard district out of Base Seattle we used a centrifuge to test for acidity, fuel dilution, solids contamination (soot, etc.), and the presence of coolant, although I don't remember the reagent that was used in titration. Much of that type of testing has given way to spectrographic analysis.
The average Joe just sends a specimen in to an oil lab, and for $25 knows what is in his oil, and what condition it's in. Here is a sample of mine from a while back.
I was Chief Engineer of a 16,000 HP diesel electric propulsion plant that consisted of four 4,000 HP EMD 710G diesel engines. I only centrifuged the fuel oil. If the lube oil became diluted as per the monthly test reports, the lube oil was changed. It was only 380 gallons per engine. Usually you won't find lube oil clarifiers on civilian vessels under 35,000 HP, although many four-cycle engine manufacturers have adopted the "spinner" concept where the engine's oil pressure is used to spin a small centrifuge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzTWWPk3zm4
Many years ago when I ran the oil analysis lab for the thirteenth Coast Guard district out of Base Seattle we used a centrifuge to test for acidity, fuel dilution, solids contamination (soot, etc.), and the presence of coolant, although I don't remember the reagent that was used in titration. Much of that type of testing has given way to spectrographic analysis.
The average Joe just sends a specimen in to an oil lab, and for $25 knows what is in his oil, and what condition it's in. Here is a sample of mine from a while back.
I was Chief Engineer of a 16,000 HP diesel electric propulsion plant that consisted of four 4,000 HP EMD 710G diesel engines. I only centrifuged the fuel oil. If the lube oil became diluted as per the monthly test reports, the lube oil was changed. It was only 380 gallons per engine. Usually you won't find lube oil clarifiers on civilian vessels under 35,000 HP, although many four-cycle engine manufacturers have adopted the "spinner" concept where the engine's oil pressure is used to spin a small centrifuge.
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RonMar
Elite Member
Bob
Yep, that was one type. The one I recall was only 2 tubes, one for the sample, and one for the control, came in a long wooden box.
EDIT: OK, here is the model I was used to, made by Visguage.
Oil Viscosity Testing Comparator - Visgage Portable Oil Viscosity Tester
I didn't realize you were a Coastie also? What ship were you refering to? I did a tour on Acushnet, she had 4 Opposed Fairbanks Morses. Was also an underway EOW on Polar SEA. That was where we had Alpa Laval lube oil, Fuel oil and hydraulic oil purifiers... The FOP's were the largest I have ever seen as when on the birds we used a whole lot of the stuff(4500GPH)... Probably the coolest job I will ever have as where else do you get a chance to crack the throttles on 75,000 shaft HP
Yep, that was one type. The one I recall was only 2 tubes, one for the sample, and one for the control, came in a long wooden box.
EDIT: OK, here is the model I was used to, made by Visguage.
Oil Viscosity Testing Comparator - Visgage Portable Oil Viscosity Tester
I didn't realize you were a Coastie also? What ship were you refering to? I did a tour on Acushnet, she had 4 Opposed Fairbanks Morses. Was also an underway EOW on Polar SEA. That was where we had Alpa Laval lube oil, Fuel oil and hydraulic oil purifiers... The FOP's were the largest I have ever seen as when on the birds we used a whole lot of the stuff(4500GPH)... Probably the coolest job I will ever have as where else do you get a chance to crack the throttles on 75,000 shaft HP
Bob Rooks
Elite Member
Bob
Yep, that was one type. The one I recall was only 2 tubes, one for the sample, and one for the control, came in a long wooden box.
EDIT: OK, here is the model I was used to, made by Visguage.
Oil Viscosity Testing Comparator - Visgage Portable Oil Viscosity Tester
I didn't realize you were a Coastie also? What ship were you refering to? I did a tour on Acushnet, she had 4 Opposed Fairbanks Morses. Was also an underway EOW on Polar SEA. That was where we had Alpa Laval lube oil, Fuel oil and hydraulic oil purifiers... The FOP's were the largest I have ever seen as when on the birds we used a whole lot of the stuff(4500GPH)... Probably the coolest job I will ever have as where else do you get a chance to crack the throttles on 75,000 shaft HP
I was on the Mallow out of Astoria for a TAD, Lightship Relief (508), and Base Seattle. Also USNS Observation Island. I just retired from Washington State Ferries after 23 years. Served on the Walla Walla, Wenatchee, and the Puyallup (Mkll's). None of the boats had auto-shoot fuel centrifuges but we shot them daily. The OI had the largest centrifuge, an old Sharples that was about 6' tall - used it to extract condensate from the turbine oil. The OI had a 22,000 HP Westinghouse geared steam turbine that was run by twin Foster Wheeler 750# 750° superheat boilers. You got me beat on the fuel consumption. The OI only burned 2,000 gal/hr of JP4, and the Puyallup only used 4,500 gal/day of #2 diesel. You must have come after me because they only had the Wind class icebreakers when I was in. They also had the Klamath and Watchusett then. Booted with Mike-26, Alameda.
RonMar
Elite Member
My oldest brother was on the Klamath in Viet Nam...
