Ford Jubilee Shift Problems

[HanknotFrank]

Ford Jubilee starts and runs good. The problem is after running for a while it is hard to shift gears. The clutch is not stuck because I can push in clutch while driving and it will coast to a stop. The tractor set out in weather forever before my wife inherited it. Transmission fluid was milky and have changed it twice in the last 2 months. Looking inside of transmission the parts don't seem to be very worn for the age. Looking at bottom of shifter with cover upside down does not seem to show much wear. The ball on the end of the shifter is not worn much or show signs of grinding marks. I come to a complete stop when changing gears and even wait several seconds for things to stop turning before trying to shift. Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[John0829]

If the tractor will be continuing to live outside then at the very least cover the shifter boot and the draft spring (big spring behind the seat) with a bucket or tarp to help prevent water (rain) from continuing to enter the cases. Condensation will still happen, eventually, unless you really work the tractor for several hours at a time.

Hard shifting is not a common problem with the old Fords, in the pic it looks like there is a fair amount of rust on the shifter rail from the contaminated lube. That combined with heat expansion is probably causing the binding. I suggest that if you clean off as much of the rust as you can from the shift rails where they enter the case, it may help. But, I suspect working and using the tractor will also free things up given a little time and shifting through the gears every chance you get.

 

[HanknotFrank]

If the tractor will be continuing to live outside then at the very least cover the shifter boot and the draft spring (big spring behind the seat) with a bucket or tarp to help prevent water (rain) from continuing to enter the cases. Condensation will still happen, eventually, unless you really work the tractor for several hours at a time.

Hard shifting is not a common problem with the old Fords, in the pic it looks like there is a fair amount of rust on the shifter rail from the contaminated lube. That combined with heat expansion is probably causing the binding. I suggest that if you clean off as much of the rust as you can from the shift rails where they enter the case, it may help. But, I suspect working and using the tractor will also free things up given a little time and shifting through the gears every chance you get.

Thanks for responding. Now that we have it we do keep it under a shed. The picture was from when I changed the fluid the 2nd time. I cleaned that stuff off as best I could and then flushed it all out with gas and let it dry for a day before installing new gasket and new fluid. What about parts in the shifter itself like the big spring or the moving parts guiding the shifter? Thanks.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks for responding. Now that we have it we do keep it under a shed. The picture was from when I changed the fluid the 2nd time. I cleaned that stuff off as best I could and then flushed it all out with gas and let it dry for a day before installing new gasket and new fluid. What about parts in the shifter itself like the big spring or the moving parts guiding the shifter? Thanks.

I agree with what John said. And to answer your question, next time you have the shifter top plate off, I'd take those parts in the top plate apart and clean, polish, and lube it all. Plus anything else where you can get to it like the rails where they pass through the case. I'd then lube it with 90wt. before reassembly.... not grease, just use motor oil or 90 wt gear lube. My bet is that you will notice the difference.

It is hard to get the water out of a transmission - often the water enters past the shift lever and just takes up residence inside the tranny. Old style transmission oils didn't have additives to absorb water into the oil;, the water just formed water layers which you see indicated as those rust stains on the gears.

Gasoline - and especially gasoline with alcohol - can really soften old vintage transmission shaft seals, so I wouldn't repeat that procedure too often....it does make things look better, though.

The best way I know of to get water out of the transmission sump is slow but works. It is pretty much what you are doing by changing the oils in there like you have been doing, but to get the most out of those changes one of the top quality trans/hydraulic oils are bestt. They are expensive, but have nice light viscosity and the capability to absorb water. So when you drain them you are draining out some of the water and rust.

Top quality tranny oils are brands like: Ford//New Holland Multi G 134, or Chevron THF-1000, or Shell Rotella HD Tractor Transmission & Hydraulic Fluid . Other name brand companies make similar trans/hydraulic dual purpose oils but the cheaper ones may not have the additives you need.
There are no performance standards for tractor trans/hydraulic oil like there are for motor oils, so that has led to a two-tiered price structure for trans/hydraulic oils. Additives are said to be part of the price difference.
The top quality oils are costly, but I just don't know of an easy alternative to getting water out.

What I would do is clean and lube those shifter components in the top cover plate and then change the oil with some of the good stuff every year or so for a couple of times. And throw a tarp over when you park outside... That might loosen up the shifting and at the least it will keep it from getting worse.
rScotty

 

[HanknotFrank]

I agree with what John said. And to answer your question, next time you have the shifter top plate off, I'd take those parts in the top plate apart and clean, polish, and lube it all. Plus anything else where you can get to it like the rails where they pass through the case. I'd then lube it with 90wt. before reassembly.... not grease, just use motor oil or 90 wt gear lube. My bet is that you will notice the difference.

It is hard to get the water out of a transmission - often the water enters past the shift lever and just takes up residence inside the tranny. Old style transmission oils didn't have additives to absorb water into the oil;, the water just formed water layers which you see indicated as those rust stains on the gears.

Gasoline - and especially gasoline with alcohol - can really soften old vintage transmission shaft seals, so I wouldn't repeat that procedure too often....it does make things look better, though.

The best way I know of to get water out of the transmission sump is slow but works. It is pretty much what you are doing by changing the oils in there like you have been doing, but to get the most out of those changes one of the top quality trans/hydraulic oils are bestt. They are expensive, but have nice light viscosity and the capability to absorb water. So when you drain them you are draining out some of the water and rust.

Top quality tranny oils are brands like: Ford//New Holland Multi G 134, or Chevron THF-1000, or Shell Rotella HD Tractor Transmission & Hydraulic Fluid . Other name brand companies make similar trans/hydraulic dual purpose oils but the cheaper ones may not have the additives you need.
There are no performance standards for tractor trans/hydraulic oil like there are for motor oils, so that has led to a two-tiered price structure for trans/hydraulic oils. Additives are said to be part of the price difference.
The top quality oils are costly, but I just don't know of an easy alternative to getting water out.

What I would do is clean and lube those shifter components in the top cover plate and then change the oil with some of the good stuff every year or so for a couple of times. And throw a tarp over when you park outside... That might loosen up the shifting and at the least it will keep it from getting worse.
rScotty

Thanks for responding. I have had it in a shed since inheriting it in August of this year. The fluid I used was recommended by a local restoration guy, it is CAM2 Promax Premium Universal in green 5 gallon container at Tractor Supply. I am willing to do another brand if you think it is better. I like the idea of disassembling the shifter and cleaning and lubing it. I was a little surprised when I realized how far the level of the fluid is below most of the working parts. I guess as things turn it just pulls the fluid up on the gears. Thanks.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks for responding. I have had it in a shed since inheriting it in August of this year. The fluid I used was recommended by a local restoration guy, it is CAM2 Promax Premium Universal in green 5 gallon container at Tractor Supply. I am willing to do another brand if you think it is better. I like the idea of disassembling the shifter and cleaning and lubing it. I was a little surprised when I realized how far the level of the fluid is below most of the working parts. I guess as things turn it just pulls the fluid up on the gears. Thanks.

I think one thing that struck both of us was how clearly defined the rust stain is on the gears in your photo. That implies that the oil & water are stratified rather than emulsified. So we know that whatever oil was in there didn't have much abilty to emulsify and remove water or limit corrosion. That tells me it is possible to do better. Simply by keeping water out to start, - and maybe switching to a different better oil.

Is the CAM2 the better oil? I have no idea. Chances are good that nobody but CAM2 knows. Reason is because unlike most products there are no testing standards or even any requirements for hydraulic oils. No constraints either - It's the wild west. Some brands are not petroleum products at all, and others sure look to me to be to be simply filtered or reprocessed motor oils cut with a solvent to lower the viscosity.
Without testing standards, advertisers can and do make any claim they want.

Of course the same applies to the Shell, Ford, New Holland, JD and Caterpillar trans/hydraullic oils - all of which cost about the same as each other, and are two or three times what the Tractor Supply trans/hydraulic cost. The name brand oils argue that they have a reputation to protect with expensive construction machines and their oil costs more to make & has expensive additives. Well... maybe.... and maybe they are just greedy. Or some of both. I surely don't know.

My bet is that cleaning up those accessible shifting parts will work wonders. As John says, those tractors are naturally easy shifters. If the clutch is not dragging, it should shift nicely. And if the clutch is dragging at all, running it is the best thing you can do for it - as well as blocking the clutch pedal when it is not in use.

As for the low level of oil in the sump -that is an interesting observation. Like you, I'd bet the gears can sling it wherever needed, and have always wondered just how designers decide how much is just right. We hope it is something more sophisticated than bull sessions and dart boards.... but is it?

BTW, a Ford Jubilee is one very nice tractor. That model is a classic keeper.
rScotty

 

[HanknotFrank]

I think one thing that struck both of us was how clearly defined the rust stain is on the gears in your photo. That implies that the oil & water are stratified rather than emulsified. So we know that whatever oil was in there didn't have much abilty to emulsify and remove water or limit corrosion. That tells me it is possible to do better. Simply by keeping water out to start, - and maybe switching to a different better oil.

Is the CAM2 the better oil? I have no idea. Chances are good that nobody but CAM2 knows. Reason is because unlike most products there are no testing standards or even any requirements for hydraulic oils. No constraints either - It's the wild west. Some brands are not petroleum products at all, and others sure look to me to be to be simply filtered or reprocessed motor oils cut with a solvent to lower the viscosity.
Without testing standards, advertisers can and do make any claim they want.

Of course the same applies to the Shell, Ford, New Holland, JD and Caterpillar trans/hydraullic oils - all of which cost about the same as each other, and are two or three times what the Tractor Supply trans/hydraulic cost. The name brand oils argue that they have a reputation to protect with expensive construction machines and their oil costs more to make & has expensive additives. Well... maybe.... and maybe they are just greedy. Or some of both. I surely don't know.

My bet is that cleaning up those accessible shifting parts will work wonders. As John says, those tractors are naturally easy shifters. If the clutch is not dragging, it should shift nicely. And if the clutch is dragging at all, running it is the best thing you can do for it - as well as blocking the clutch pedal when it is not in use.

As for the low level of oil in the sump -that is an interesting observation. Like you, I'd bet the gears can sling it wherever needed, and have always wondered just how designers decide how much is just right. We hope it is something more sophisticated than bull sessions and dart boards.... but is it?

BTW, a Ford Jubilee is one very nice tractor. That model is a classic keeper.
rScotty

Thanks.

 

[ultrarunner]

Just a comment about old Ford transmissions.

I use to work on a lot of Model A Fords and what you describe sounds very similar.

When cold the gear oil has more drag and when warmed up much less.

Had a guy come in saying he couldn't put it in gear without some clash or grinding when warm.

He had a modern gear lube that was nothing like the 600w Ford OEM gear oil.

I put in 600w and no more grinding when shifting when warm.

Some of the guys came up with their own mix having trouble finding 600w and that was adding STP

I have a Jubilee and shift is proper... my guess is whatever Steiner sells is the gear oil I have

 

[HanknotFrank]

Just a comment about old Ford transmissions.

I use to work on a lot of Model A Fords and what you describe sounds very similar.

When cold the gear oil has more drag and when warmed up much less.

Had a guy come in saying he couldn't put it in gear without some clash or grinding when warm.

He had a modern gear lube that was nothing like the 600w Ford OEM gear oil.

I put in 600w and no more grinding when shifting when warm.

Some of the guys came up with their own mix having trouble finding 600w and that was adding STP

I have a Jubilee and shift is proper... my guess is whatever Steiner sells is the gear oil I have

 

[HanknotFrank]

Thanks for the info.

 

[HanknotFrank]

Just a comment about old Ford transmissions.

I use to work on a lot of Model A Fords and what you describe sounds very similar.

When cold the gear oil has more drag and when warmed up much less.

Had a guy come in saying he couldn't put it in gear without some clash or grinding when warm.

He had a modern gear lube that was nothing like the 600w Ford OEM gear oil.

I put in 600w and no more grinding when shifting when warm.

Some of the guys came up with their own mix having trouble finding 600w and that was adding STP

I have a Jubilee and shift is proper... my guess is whatever Steiner sells is the gear oil I have

I thought I would post some pics just in case anything jumps out at anyone. I said I thought the ends of the shifter were not worn but I saw some pics of a new one and it was not as rounded on the bottom. Thanks

 

[John0829]

A good and easy way to remove water from the housing is to use diesel instead of gas. Drain the housing and fill it with diesel then drive it around for awhile, DO NOT work the tractor, just drive it around. The faster you can go and more you can make turns to slosh the diesel around the better. The diesel will provide enough lube for the bearings so no worry there.

I do not know the oil you said you are using, in my 850 which is just a newer version of you NAA, I use UTF (Universal Tractor FLuid) from Tractor supply. It meets the Ford 134D specification or if you want you can use 80W90 in the transmission but most folks use the UTF because most of these old tractors have leaking seals between the transmission and hydraulic compartments. If they leak a little and you use the same in both compartments, no big deal. UTF is also safe for the differential compartment so one oil takes care of all three.

Your shifter is showing wear but not enough (IMHO) to worry about at this time. If it was trying to go into 2 gears at the same time then I would say replace it but right now I would not be concerned.

 

[HanknotFrank]

A good and easy way to remove water from the housing is to use diesel instead of gas. Drain the housing and fill it with diesel then drive it around for awhile, DO NOT work the tractor, just drive it around. The faster you can go and more you can make turns to slosh the diesel around the better. The diesel will provide enough lube for the bearings so no worry there.

I do not know the oil you said you are using, in my 850 which is just a newer version of you NAA, I use UTF (Universal Tractor FLuid) from Tractor supply. It meets the Ford 134D specification or if you want you can use 80W90 in the transmission but most folks use the UTF because most of these old tractors have leaking seals between the transmission and hydraulic compartments. If they leak a little and you use the same in both compartments, no big deal. UTF is also safe for the differential compartment so one oil takes care of all three.

Your shifter is showing wear but not enough (IMHO) to worry about at this time. If it was trying to go into 2 gears at the same time then I would say replace it but right now I would not be concerned.

 

[HanknotFrank]

Thank you.

 

[TractorTech]

It’s been awhile since I had the cover off one of these transmissions, but isn’t the rusty spot circled in the picture the 1st/3rd shift rail detent? This may be part of your problem.
Either way, you need to pull and clean the rust out of the bore and off of the spring and ball or replace both.

 

[HanknotFrank]

It’s been awhile since I had the cover off one of these transmissions, but isn’t the rusty spot circled in the picture the 1st/3rd shift rail detent? This may be part of your problem.
Either way, you need to pull and clean the rust out of the bore and off of the spring and ball or replace both.

Thanks for responding. This was taken before I cleaned the shaft with gas and changed the fluid the first time a month or 2 ago. I have changed the fluid again since then and also cleaned the detent ball spring. I was unable to get the detent ball out of the hole. How do you do that? I tried tweezers, air pressure, a magnet and could not get it out? I cleaned the hole with brake cleaner a couple of times too. Thanks.

 

[TractorTech]

Thanks for responding. This was taken before I cleaned the shaft with gas and changed the fluid the first time a month or 2 ago. I have changed the fluid again since then and also cleaned the detent ball spring. I was unable to get the detent ball out of the hole. How do you do that? I tried tweezers, air pressure, a magnet and could not get it out? I cleaned the hole with brake cleaner a couple of times too. Thanks.

Oh, I don't know any other tricks to pull out. Disassembling the shift rod and sliding it out is the next method.

 

[HanknotFrank]

Oh, I don't know any other tricks to pull out. Disassembling the shift rod and sliding it out is the next method.

Ok, thank you.

 

[TractorTech]

I forgot to ask, what does the spring and ball look like? Is the ball shiney or is it pitted?

 

[John0829]

Was it jumping out of gear? If not I would not worry to much about the detent, soak it with penetrating oil and move on.

Really since you have flushed the case and removed as much of the contaminates as you have I would just run it shifting as often as possible between all the gears. The rust will wear off and it will smooth up given some time. Besides, using and working the tractor will get you enjoyable/valuable seat time.

Granted cleaning off as much rust as you can reach would help speed the process, I really see no need open it up again or to get any deeper into it right now, such as doing a rebuild of the transmission. Unless you just want to. Just be aware there is a rebuild in its near or distant future simply because of the rust in the bearings caused by the water contamination.