First Timer - when to do 'third cutting'?

[prof fate]

Been talking to the wife for years that we shold do haying..she finally agreed..after I mowed the pastures in mid July of course...

SO, looking at 10 acres or so of 'third cutting' - only advice I've been given is 'it takes longer to dry in the fall than summer'...

So, being in western PA, when (other than needing 3-4 dry sunny days in a row) is a good time to do the third cutting? Any particular indications in the hay/grass itself?

 

[boomer1025]

If the hay is ready to cut and the weather holds out for drying and getting it baled. Do it, never know this time of the year when the weather will turn wet or just stay cloudy for several days.

 

[5030]

Heck, I've run hay in the winter here in Michigan, all depends on dry time. I'm about to run last cut myself. I'll cut it with the discbine, crimp rolls at heavy tension, swath board down to lay a wide windrow or I might install the New Holland 'Wide / thin' kit on the swath board for an even wider windrow, depends on how thick the crop is. I carry the wide / think kit in the toolbox just in case.

After I cut and crimp it and lay it down wide, I'll wait a day and come back and ted it out, let it dry down for a couple days (checking the RM with my Delmhorst moisture meter). When it's about 20% or less, I'll rake it into windrows with my H&S rotary rake and round bale it. Rule of thumb for me is I only ted on last cut because in the fall, dew can be an issue. I also cut high (set the discbine to leave a substantial amount of stubble because I want the forage to sit on top of the stubble and get airflow under it). Bale it in rounds, 52" in diameter x 4 feet wide in twine (I can run net or twine but the cost per bale in twine is substantially less and the bales are all going inside anyway). Only have one customer (besides myself) and he picks the bales up in the field, all I do is load his trailers. He takes everything I make and has for years. He raises cattle and bucking bulls.

My round baler has continuous moisture readout in the cab (RM) so I always know what I'm baling though I can tell by how much dust / chaff is coming off the baler how dry the forage is. Basically all computerized control.

Like I said, I've ran hay in December before. All depends on the weather. Last time I did it, I had a dust of snow on the cut hay. Had to wait for that to vanish and an extra day before bailing but the hay was fine.

 

[joeu235]

Rule of thumb we use for when the grass is ready to cut is about 6 weeks between cuttings and when the grass is knee high. Fall cuttings can be a little different since there is a hard deadline on the horizon. Last year, it rained so much in the fall that the only week of dry weather was right after the first freeze. Since a freeze turns horse quality grass into goat hay, I was out at night with a 20 mph north wind and sub 40 temperatures cutting the grass before it froze later that night. It wasn't "premium" hay but the horse owners were happy to get it.

Are you making hay for yourself or others? Horse, cow, or goat hay? If its for yourself, you have have more room for error since its the animal owner who's more picky than the animal.

 

[Thomas]

Around these parts third cut done before good frost.

 

[prof fate]

Rule of thumb we use for when the grass is ready to cut is about 6 weeks between cuttings and when the grass is knee high. Fall cuttings can be a little different since there is a hard deadline on the horizon. Last year, it rained so much in the fall that the only week of dry weather was right after the first freeze. Since a freeze turns horse quality grass into goat hay, I was out at night with a 20 mph north wind and sub 40 temperatures cutting the grass before it froze later that night. It wasn't "premium" hay but the horse owners were happy to get it.

Are you making hay for yourself or others? Horse, cow, or goat hay? If its for yourself, you have have more room for error since its the animal owner who's more picky than the animal.

horse for myself. anything too crappy I can sell to goat or cow folks, or at auction.

Forecast is for 8 days of no rain and lower than normal humidity for here...so tomorrow I cut.

 

[joeu235]

horse for myself. anything too crappy I can sell to goat or cow folks, or at auction.

Forecast is for 8 days of no rain and lower than normal humidity for here...so tomorrow I cut.

Good Luck!!

 

[prof fate]

i got the tractor and mower ready, tested the rake..need to adjust it and the PTO shaft needs to be longer yet...but that's for friday morning.

 

[ddbackhoe]

its the animal owner who's more picky than the animal.

:thumbsup: :laughing: Alot of truth in that statement. I know quite a few horse owners (low budget trail horses) that wont allow their horse to graze off their property because it may make them sick

 

[prof fate]

fun fun...7 days of no rain. cooler temps, but that's a good thing, right?

OK..old ferguson rake, replaced all the tines and had maybe 10 become issues..bent and banging. got tired fo straightening htem so just removed them. it's settled down adn works now.

Issue...how low should I rake? I have it about an inch above the dirt - no dirt, but am pulling up green leaves from stuff that wasn't cut (cut to 4" or so). So the 'dry' hay has 'new' cuttings in it...not a lot, but they're there. An issue or not?

let it dry 24+ hours, seemed good, windowed it let it sit a day...didn't you know a stray sprinkle hits as I'm finishing..argh.

So I rolled the windrows..twice now...still too damp inside. This morning no dew (first time in a week) and gonna let it sit - rolled the rows last night, fluffed them up. Gotta work all day. supposed to be near 90 and sunny.

Tomorrow humidity returns and then 4 days of rain starting about 5pm. So I have a window from 9 am (too early i'm guessing) till 1..then back to work till 5. Crossing my fingers.

BALER....

I'm becoming a new holland expert, like it or not. er, knot. LOL.

Walked it thru by hand, seemed ok. Went to run some hay and broke the needles. The feed fingers also stalled at time...WTF?

Seems the knotter was all gummed up..thick grease. So the shaft wouldn't turn all the way, the slip clutch kicked in. the shear pin on the knotter is a grade 5 bolt...not good. Didn't check the flywheel pin, will tonight. Saw a video that showed a lockout that is supposed to stop the plunger breaking the flywheel shear pin BEFORE it the plunger takes out the needles..which BTW are $360 for the pair. I'm gonna weld up (first shot at welding cast irom) the old ones as a timing test/backup. Can't afford to break $360 needs (plus the 3 hours to go fetch them...or spend less and wait 10 days for delivery)

So it's all in time, all cleaned and lubed (again) and freed up. SEEMS to be working, but didn't have needles till 7pm last night to see if it truly works.

Having gone over most every inch of it, it does seem to be in very good mechanical shape.

OH, the knotter clutch was missing a spring...found one in my tool box...

 

[prof fate]

UPDATE:

overview - yes, you can hay with a CUT...35hp Kioti CK3510HST is plenty of tractor for a new holland 276 or similar square baler.

Education costs - even the school of hard knocks won't be cheap or easy.

So...with the threat of rain approaching I went to put the new needles on the baler...something(s) ain't right. The needles are new and identical (and not cheap) so I wanted to be sure it's all good before I turn on teh PTO. Put the needles in, and they are adjustable...but I don't have enough adjustment...the right needle comes throught the knotter about 1.5" before the left one and rubs too much on the knotter ***'y. A bit of fiddling and it looked to be more than an easy fix or adjustment...

So we made flakes and put them in the barn. About 130 bales worth. By then it was getting dark. And of course we had to do this on the hottest day of the year - ok, maybe not the hottest but it was 91F (only third day this year of 90 plus). Just lucky I guess. LOL

Need a hay wagon..my utility trailer just won't hold enough hay. Tied bales would have been abit better as it could be stacked higher, but not a good choice.

Need more space for hay - knew that going in. Thinking hoop house for next year.

Hay Quantity/Quality - took too damned long to dry - cut last thursday and windrowed some friday, some saturday, turned it sunday, monday and tuesday...It did get sprinkled on sunday late afternoon. Quality is fantastic.

Used an old (but rebuild/restored) ferguson 3 point rake. Can turn all the hay in an hour on the 10-12 acres. Expectations were 100-150 bales. Typically here farmers say they get 150/acre out of 3 cuttings, the first being half the hay for the year or more, the third cutting being the leanest. This being old horse pasture we had no real idea what to expect...1/4 of it produced very little, so little I didn't bother raking it. I feel we got less than half the hay in.

And then it rained...and there's no place to put it anyway. Untied bales don't stack well. Filled 2 stalls (12x12 and 6 ot 7' high) plus another area 12x12 and 4' high plus another 5x6 3' high. If first cutting is this 'overproductive' we'll have 1000 bales to deal with...

the woodmaxx flail with grass blades and open hatch in the back worked perfectly. 6 1/2 hours to mow. first raking into windrows...didn't time that. Had to go to work in between so it was catch as catch can. Rolling the rows was an hour give or take 5min.

Baling..didn't get it all done. Seems to take maybe 2 hours to bale it all..can go nearly as fast as raking but turning is a bit more complex.

Done lots of mowing/brush hogging in the past, first time haying - it went faster and was easier (and used less fuel) than expected. So should be more profitable than expected.

Now the question...what to do with the wet (it rained last night some, more expected today and early tomorrow) windrows still in the field?

And I've learned alot about NH balers and have a lot more to learn - I have learned very few people know jack **** about them! The only advice "it has to be in-time"...which is stupid easy to do, easier than timing a car engine by far. But I'm now into the advanced level class getting the needles into aligment. I suspect bent parts...that's for the weekend.

 

[thekkfan]

Hay Quantity/Quality - took too damned long to dry.... -

the woodmaxx flail with grass blades and open hatch in the back worked perfectly.

So their are two very important pieces of equipment that you have to have at least ONE OF to cut down on the dry time. The first is either a mower/conditioner to crimp as its cut (haybine as suggested earlier to stay in budget) and/or tedder. Whether you believe it or not, I can cut faster with haybine than your flail. Cut is wider AND my grass is getting crimped to dry faster first pass, eliminating one toss you will have to do.

Sounds like you were forced into a windrow WAAAY too early because you only had a rake, and that's the only way you could flip it since no tedder.

Send us a picture of what it looks like after it come out of the flail. I'm sure others are curious too how that came out.

As for the wet windrows, I'd close the hatch on that flail and grind it up.

 

[prof fate]

yeah, good idea on the flail grinding it up! Duh.

I have the flail...I've seen haybine (disc ones) for $1200 with no rollers (broken/worn) or double to triple that in good working condition. May work up to that.

everyone here says you need a tedder. But then we're coming off the two wettest years on record - some folks this year have yet to get their SECOND cutting in (mid sept..usually done mid-july). There are areas in our pasture that I just this past week was able to mow...still wet and it's on top of a hill, not bottom land.

We just had our longest stretch of no-rain days in 18 months - 5 days of no measurable rain. 80% humidity...but no rain. Dew? Yeah, that we got in spades. And fog too. So things get a tad, um, damp overnight.

 

[5030]

Why I round bale everything and the 575 high capacity square baler stays in the barn like it has for the last 3 years now. It's for sale. 15 grand in mint condition, has hydraulic tension and super wide pickup and runs sisal or poly.

 

[prof fate]

yeah, feeding rounds to horses in stalls is way too much work. need small squares..large squares are nice but I don't think my little tractor will run that kinda baler.

Part of the reason we're doing this is so many are moving away from small squares it's hard to find them. and wtih 2 years of wet weather hay is scarce here. 2 regular suppliers..one is only doing rounds and the other doesn't have as much to sell as in the past.

Considering buying a big round, roll it out. rake it and bale it to small squares. 4x5 rounds can be had here for $35 delivered. If that's 800lb, it's 20 40lb squares, which run $4 each delivered (from our regular guy..some are charging 6, 7 a bale, agway is asking $9/sq bale!)

 

[5030]

Your 'little' tractor won't power a large square baler. Most are around 150 pto input horsepower.

I've already sold everything I made, sold it right out of the field except what I need to feed my cattle and my wife's horse.

 

[Hay Dude]

Did ~15,000 small squares/year until my shoulders couldnt take it anymore.
Switched to 4x5 round bales and never looked back.
It has been tough to convince customers that round bales can be fed in a Hay Hut with little loss of quality, but some of my customers that somewhat "overgraze" their paddocks will use a Hay Hut all day and then feed small squares at night when they want.
The ones that have employed this method have become long term customers and thank me for showing them this way of saving $ on hay with this method of feeding.

 

[Citydude]

Did ~15,000 small squares/year until my shoulders couldnt take it anymore.
Switched to 4x5 round bales and never looked back.
It has been tough to convince customers that round bales can be fed in a Hay Hut with little loss of quality, but some of my customers that somewhat "overgraze" their paddocks will use a Hay Hut all day and then feed small squares at night when they want.
The ones that have employed this method have become long term customers and thank me for showing them this way of saving $ on hay with this method of feeding.

15K bales a year? Your no hobby farmer

 

[5030]

I have a NH 575 high capacity square baler in the barn I haven't used in at least 5 years. Has a hydraulic tongue, hydraulic bale tension and a thrower and it sits. I only run round bales in net now and I have one customer who buys it all right out of the field. he brings in his trailers and I load them and he pays me in November, in cash.

Great deal for me. At my age (70), I have no business fiddling with square bales or horse people. He's a cattle rancher that also raises high buck bucking bulls. Sold my hay racks a couple years ago. kept the baler, don't know why but it's there if I need it I guess.

Had some 15K years myself, 15K in hay and 12-15K in straw. Not no more.

 

[prof fate]

and the issues is here I can buy horse hay round bales for $40 anytime, 25 much of the time, cow/goat hay is cheaper yet. So that's what, 800lb bales, so $100/ton?

Squares are getting harder to find, but feeding horses in stalls it's really the only way to go. We're getting it for about $4/bale, 35-40lb bales, so $200/ton. DOUBLE the price.

And some (at the race track in particular) are getting, 6, 7 even $8 per bale (race track prices for $8).

Wanna DOUBLE or TRIPLE your income? Do squares.

You can get self loading wagons, with bigger tractors you can get accumulators and loader grippers.
Kuhns Mfg Small Square Bale Handling System Overview - YouTube