Backhoe Filled tires with backhoe?

[rcrcomputing]

I feel no need for filled tires. Course, my backhoe is usually on, but not always..

 

[Ductape]

I think you may have really "hit the nail on the head" with the legal liability - ROPS issue!!!

My owner's manual states that the ROPS has a safety rating for 9,000lbs. If I fill both rear tires - I'll be over the weight limit!

Good thread.

AKfish

I was concerned that with the added weight of my backhoe, the rollover protection of my cab would be reduced. To compensate, I filled my tires.............................. with helium !

 

[Volfandt]

I run loaded rears (turfs & bar's ) on my BX23 as I have the BH removed at least 80% of the time. It's just too easy to mount / dismount to keep it mounted when not needed. My rears are filled to approx 70% rimguard and 30% air. With the loaded rears I've yet to need any additional ballast when digging/hauling material.
If one keeps the loaded FEL as low as possible to the ground when transporting, the chances of a rollover decreases proportionally. Course there are inclines/declines where one shouldn't traverse with a loaded FEL anyhow. The tractors center of gravity changes immencely in proportion to the level of and load in an FEL.

The BX23 owners manual gives a pretty detailed reason for not running ballast in the rears with the BH installed. As been already posted, it recommends to remove ballast when the BH is mounted (yeah right)
It's shows the expansion forces within the tire when it rolls over an obstacle. It indicates that if the rears are filled too full, leaving little room for the remaining air to compress, the ballast's lack of being able to compress "may" blow out between the tire and rim, baically blowing the tires bead out. An immediate blowout would cause a rollover in certain situations....
Theres a happy medium which I believe I've found w/a 70/30 fluid/air load. YUMV......

 

[BXpanded]

Hmm, does anyone know the wieght rating on BX ROPS ?

Th BX24 folding ROPS is rated for a gross tractor weight of 2994 lbs.

ROPS are tested in some pretty violent methods such as inverted and dropped a certain distance on the corner... Not just a slow roll.

 

[maverick660]

The dealer rec that I fill the tires when I purchased my unit with BH and it was after the deal was made for the most part so no additional charge

 

[bandit67]

I asked my dealer about the issue regarding the filled rears with a backhoe and he said they've been doing that for years, and not seen any issues yet.

Per the owner's manual, whenever I re-attach my backhoe, I remove the liquid from the tires, then re-fill the tires when the backhoe comes off. I have a 1000 gallon tank in my yard to handle all the liquid ballast I go through by filling and draining regularly. OK, just kidding.

I look at it this way - my machine's 3pt hitch is rated to lift nearly 1700 lbs 24" behind the lift point and over 2100 lbs at the lift point. Since my backhoe is 800-1000 lbs, and the ballasted tires are somewhere around 300 lbs, I figure that I have plenty of safety margin built in.

 

[Reg]

I asked my dealer about the issue regarding the filled rears with a backhoe and he said they've been doing that for years, and not seen any issues yet.

Per the owner's manual, whenever I re-attach my backhoe, I remove the liquid from the tires, then re-fill the tires when the backhoe comes off. I have a 1000 gallon tank in my yard to handle all the liquid ballast I go through by filling and draining regularly. OK, just kidding.

I look at it this way - my machine's 3pt hitch is rated to lift nearly 1700 lbs 24" behind the lift point and over 2100 lbs at the lift point. Since my backhoe is 800-1000 lbs, and the ballasted tires are somewhere around 300 lbs, I figure that I have plenty of safety margin built in.

Huhh ?
I don't see what relationship you think there is here.
A ton or so of lift capacity is just that,
300 lbs of ballast in a tire is just that,
or 300 in each,
so what ?
They're Unrelated.

 

[bandit67]

What do you mean they're unrelated?

If the machine is rated to pick up 2000 lbs with the 3 point hitch and transport it, then you should be able to haul around 1100-1300 lbs worth of backhoe and loaded tires, right? Yes, you'd need a big load in the FEL to balance the 2000 lbs on the 3pt hitch, but the idea that you can lift that much with the 3pt hitch should tell you that a lesser combined load hanging off the back and in the tires should not cause damage.

 

[Reg]

What do you mean they're unrelated?

If the machine is rated to pick up 2000 lbs with the 3 point hitch and transport it, then you should be able to haul around 1100-1300 lbs worth of backhoe and loaded tires, right? Yes, you'd need a big load in the FEL to balance the 2000 lbs on the 3pt hitch, but the idea that you can lift that much with the 3pt hitch should tell you that a lesser combined load hanging off the back and in the tires should not cause damage.

Tire ballast is NOT CARRIED by the 3 PH, ergo the 3 ph capacity and weight of fluid in the tires are not related.

Tire ballast is MOVED by the tractor, in that sense ALONE it represents a load, but it is already and always on the ground.
It isn't "lifted", it is never "hanging off the back", it doesn't need to be counter balanced by anything in the loader, in fact it is the counter balance to the load in the bucket.

I appreciate that you are confused; but your tractor's lift capacity is still pretty much unrelated to tire ballast. Just think it through, you can get there.

 

[bandit67]

However, backhoe weight and 3pt hitch capacity are somewhat related, as to the stresses and strains that they put on a machine while driving it around. My owner's manual states nothing about removing liquid tire ballast when utilizing the maximum rated load capacity of the 3pt hitch. Only when installing the backhoe.

My point is that if the weight inside the tires plus the weight of the backhoe would put too much strain on the drivetrain components, which is possibly the reason for the recommendation to remove the weight from inside the tires, then why will 1700 -2000 lbs hanging off the 3pt hitch, which is significantly more than the weight of the backhoe, cause any issues?

Is there a bigger issue that we are all missing that you are aware of, but have yet to enlighten us on, as to how tire ballast & backhoes are RELATED, yet tire ballast and 3pt hitch loads are UNRELATED? Could you please finally provide us with a detailed, informative explanation to this question?

 

[powerstroke444e]

I foam filled my b26 and the hoe is on and off several times a day when we use it. I find yes it makes it heavy but that is what I wanted.
I could not imagine removing the extra wieght as it needs every pound when using the loader even with the hoe on it.

 

[Reg]

However, backhoe weight and 3pt hitch capacity are somewhat related, as to the stresses and strains that they put on a machine while driving it around. My owner's manual states nothing about removing liquid tire ballast when utilizing the maximum rated load capacity of the 3pt hitch. Only when installing the backhoe.

My point is that if the weight inside the tires plus the weight of the backhoe would put too much strain on the drivetrain components, which is possibly the reason for the recommendation to remove the weight from inside the tires, then why will 1700 -2000 lbs hanging off the 3pt hitch, which is significantly more than the weight of the backhoe, cause any issues?

Is there a bigger issue that we are all missing that you are aware of, but have yet to enlighten us on, as to how tire ballast & backhoes are RELATED, yet tire ballast and 3pt hitch loads are UNRELATED? Could you please finally provide us with a detailed, informative explanation to this question?

The only way in which they are "related" is that BIG'er tractors typically have BIG'er lift capacities and BIG'er tires, it is therefore possible to get more liquid ballast in the tires.

Tire ballast is still un-carried weight, it is a convenient counter balance to the loader bucket as well as directly applied mass to the rear drive wheels, so it is a convenient (space efficient) way of adding traction for ground engaging implements.
A hoe "hangs off the back" and the more massive the tractor the more stable the hoe.
My hoe probably weighs about the same as my tire ballast, ~1100 lbs each, and I regard the 1100 or so pounds of tire ballast as a useful addition to the tractor/loader mass of around 5300 lbs when hoe'ing.
I still try to fill the bucket with dirt before setting it down to dig with the hoe.
All this adds up and helps me not drag the tractor and myself into the holes I dig.

I think the only "bigger issue" is with Kubota's failure to explain the "advice" to use un-ballasted tires with their hoes.
The earlier explanation that it MIGHT be (fear of) a liability issue with the rating of the ROPS seems likely to me.
Lets see; If my tractor rolled over with un-ballasted tires the rear wheel that would be up in the air would weigh somewhere around 400 lbs.
Same/similar rollover with ballasted tires would have a 950 lb or so loaded wheel up in the air.
That is just the static condition.

I speculate that WHILE ROLLING the additional mass could accumulate sufficient more energy to complete the roll, e.g. it could make the difference between on it's side or on it's roll bar - with an extra 1100 lbs in the tires (and the ~1100 lb hoe).

So; IF a tip-over "happens" you might be better off with no tire ballast.
If you ballast the tires I think the tractor is less likely to roll over, under same/similar circumstances, though once tipped it is more likely to roll completely.

 

[BXpanded]

Backhoe operators move and re-position the tractor with the BH. Lifting the rear of the tractor with the hoe is more difficult with the additional weight of the loaded tires and restricts the "gymnastics" that can be accomplished. Note that the bucket has to be much closer to the tractor to lift the rear with the loaded tires. Also, it is very difficult to slide the machine sideways as is done when setting the rear over a previously dug ditch. The ability to move the machine is important and could be a great source of irritation to certain owners.
As others have posted, the weight of the tire and its fill are supported by the ground not by the tractor when driving around.

 

[bandit67]

Boy, my little BH75 can throw my B3030, loaded tires and all, around pretty easily. I've had loaded rears since the day it was delivered, and I have no problem repositioning the machine, including lifting the brake-engaged rear tires far enough off the ground to drag the tractor around to where I need it.

All I'm saying is that Kubota doesn't clarify why the "no loaded tires with backhoe" stance. Some have conjectured it's related to driveline strain when the tires are off the ground during backhoe work, some that it's related to driveline strain when the backhoe is on and you're driving around (which as I've pointed out, makes no sense since you can carry a larger load with the 3pt hitch), others that you can't move the machine around easily during backhoe work, and others that it's related to rollover dangers. All of those points can be easily argued against, and don't seem to make any sense as to the "why should tires NOT be loaded with the backhoe attached, but no other times".

I suspect we won't get the real answer until we hear from someone in the know as to what the engineers were thinking. An answer no one here so far has provided.

 

[bx24d]

I guess I'm really a rebel......I have loaded rears, with wheel weights and a backhoe on my bx24. Don't have the hoe on too much but don't even take the wheel weights off when I do use the hoe. Dealer never said boo. I'll post immediately if I have a blow out.

 

[cgardnerma]

Awesome bunch of replies guys. Thank you very much. Tractor is now coming tomorrow morning (woo hoo) and I decided to skip the ballast in the tires for now although I did get a ballast box. I'll probably leave the hoe on in most cases. They seem pretty compact on the new machines.

 

[rcrcomputing]

Awesome bunch of replies guys. Thank you very much. Tractor is now coming tomorrow morning (woo hoo) and I decided to skip the ballast in the tires for now although I did get a ballast box. I'll probably leave the hoe on in most cases. They seem pretty compact on the new machines.

Now you can start searching for threads on "backhoe thumbs".
I've one I made myself, simple and ugly and I LOVE IT!

 

[cgardnerma]

Ha! I actually ordered it with the thumb and they forgot it in my contract even though the total price should have included it. I took a risk at delivery time and signed anyway trusting my local guy would do the right thing. He did and has been great to deal with.

In fact, I thought I was buying a machine on the lot and as it turned out, the whole package was in crates. I bribed the service guy with a case of beer to stay late on Friday so I could get it yesterday morning. The weather here is stunning and I had 15 yds of mulch and topsoil waiting for me in the driveway. I literally did the deal over the phone with the guy. No money changed hands until the machine was sitting in my driveway and the service guy himself had given me a 30 minute walkthrough and practice session removing the implements.

I had never purchased a new tractor before, so I only have car purchases to compare it to. But man, it was an easy, no pressure, very trusting transaction. I have been impressed with my dealer so far.

I am going out to take some pics and will post later today. Too busy getting it dirty yesterday.

 

[bandit67]

In fact, I thought I was buying a machine on the lot and as it turned out, the whole package was in crates.

But man, it was an easy, no pressure, very trusting transaction. I have been impressed with my dealer so far.

A purchase experience like that makes buying a new tractor even that much better.

Looking forward to the pics.

 

[cgardnerma]

Here you go guys. I posted some pics over here.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/142387-b2620-coming-tomorrow-2.html