fertilizer

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Paul,
Thanks for your informed response. The only Nitrogen compound I could come up with that had a 40% Nitrogen content was (NH)4OH, in solution used as a fertilizer it is really 29.4%. After this blunder I looked at Simplots web site and they market a 40-0-0 fertilizer as Methylene Urea and also Urea as 46-0-0. To address Doc and T-Bone's (ditto) who is correct? I think what Doc is saying is he can buy a three bag mix one of 40-0-0, one of 0-40-0 and one of 0-0-40 marketed as 40-40-40.
As an impossible example, if I have pure Nitrogen pure Potassium, and pure Phosphorus, is this then 100-100-100? Don't try this at home.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.simplot.com/msds/11005.PDF>NH(4)OH</A>

T-Bone,

I didn't see anything in the links you provided which supports the percentage is based on the total content of the bag. I still believe it is based on the percentage of the element contained in the compound for the nutrient of Nitrogen Phosphorus or Potassium. I bet Paul will come thru with an answer. I certainly don't have your experience nor Pauls credentials.

Al

 

[TBone]

<font color=red>"The numbers, always given in the same order, represent the percentages each of N, P, and K in the bag (by weight)"</font color=red>

I guess it's just me but this is simple as pie.

13-13-13 is:

13% Nitrogen
13% Phosphorus
13% Potassium (commonly known as POTASH)

Stated another way, if you had a 100lb. bag of fertilizer marked 13-13-13 that bag would contain the equivelant of:

13 lbs. of NITROGEN
13 lbs. of PHOSPHORUS
13 lbs. of POTASSIUM

<font color=blue>As an impossible example, if I have pure Nitrogen pure Potassium, and pure Phosphorus, is this then 100-100-100?</font color=blue>

NO, nothing can be 100% of (X) plus 100% of (Y) plus 100% of (Z)

If it did, a 100 lb. bag of 100-100-100 would contain:

100 lbs. of Nitrogen
100 lbs. of Phosphorus
100 lbs. of Potassium

As you said, maybe Paul can explain it. Your local County Agent or Department of Agriculture representative could also explain it to you.

TBone

 

[cowboydoc]

You're right twinkle toes that's exactly how I buy it. We figure out what is needed for the particular parcel of ground and then just add what we need to the mixer and then put it in the hopper. If I was home I could scan you my scale tickets where it says right on there 40/40/40 mix or other variations. If it's bagged I have no idea because I've never bought bagged fertilizer. Maybe there is a difference there. I have only ever bought it bulk. I'll talk to my fertilizer guy on monday and see what he says. He's owned the business for 40 years now so he should know the skinny on all of this.

 

[TBone]

Cowboydoc,

Can you provide me the name and phone number of your fertilizer guy?

TBone

 

[TBone]

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tfi.org/AboutFertilizer/analysis.asp>http://www.tfi.org/AboutFertilizer/analysis.asp</A>

Twinkletoes,

This is the simplest explanation I can find. If you still don't agree, we will agree to disagree. I don't feel too bad though, my son is an Engineer and we don't agree on everything either.

Cowboydoc,

The analysis code on bulk fertilizer is exactly the same as the bagged stuff. If your ticket says 40-40-40 then it is misleading. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I can probably count on one hand the number of things that I am absolutely sure of because I am neither well educated nor extremely bright but this is one of them.

TBone

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

TBone,

<font color=blue>this is simple as pie.</font color=blue> I'm a little slow so please bear with me/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I understand what your saying, but the dilema is based on how the percentage of the nutrient is calculated. Your saying based on the percentage of the nutrient in the whole bag and I'm saying it is based on the percentage of the nutrient in the compound that provides the nutrient.

For example if I buy 34-0-0 fertilizer, I know the compound is Amonimum Nitrate. It is not a case of 34 lbs of Amonimum Nitrate in a 100lb bag.

Obviously I could be wrong, but will let the dust settle a bit before I acknowledge it./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Al

 

[cowboydoc]

I just called my wife and got one of the old tickets for some fertilizer and it shows 40-40-90. You can call river valley co-op in Durant, Iowa and talk to them. I just called and they said they didn't know what you were talking about everything equaling a 100. They said you could sure have a 100-100-100 mix or anything in between on a bulk mix. I don't even know how all this works. That's why I hire the experts to do figure out what I need. That's what they're there for. So I'm not sure what your figures are for? The figures I gave are what the ratio mixes are for pasture. They do the same thing for my corn and soybeans but nobody asked about fertilizer for corn and soybeans. If you don't have a soil analysis then they recommend either a 40-40-40 or a 40-40-90 for pasture depending on how it's been grazed, type of soil, etc.

 

[cowboydoc]

TBone,
No ruffled feathers I just don't want anyone to be confused if they go to get bulk fertilizer. If they do they will see it like I have shown. Like I said I have no idea what the bagged deal is like. The website you showed has to do with percent fo the total. I think this is where we are getting off base. With bulk you aren't talking about ratio of a total. You are talking about the strength of the particular product. So in the nitrogen component that pellet contains 46 units. If you have the phosphorous it contains 40 units etc. We aren't talking about a total ratio here because we're dealing with each individual product individually not as a whole as they do in bagged fertilizer. That's why you don't see the numbers equaling a 100.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

TBone,

I didn't see this response when I made my last post. I think we were banging on the keyboard at the same time and you won. I read your link and don't see how it contradicts either position. From my view the other things in the bag for the example of Amomimum Nitrate would be the Hydrogen and oxygen not counted as a percentage of the nutrient. (the 66% that is not Nitrogen in Amonimum Nitrate) plus any added filler.

Probably, what is more important for both of us rather than to agree or disagree, is to know what % of what works on the things we grow.
Maybe Paul or someone will jump in and humilate me and I will have to admitt I'm wrong again/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Good discussion, thanks

Al

 

[TBone]

<font color=blue>I'm a little slow so please bear with me</font color=blue>

You think you're slow/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Ok, let's just take some common concentrations of the three nutrients on the fertilizer analysis code - Nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and make our own.

As you said one of the most common sources of nitrogen is ammonium nitrate, which is 34% nitrogen, by weight. I called the local fertilizer mill that mixes the raw ingredients to make blended fertilizer. They said their phosphorus (they call it phosphate) is a 46% concentration. They also told me their potassium (they called it potash) is a 60% concention.

Let's mix 100 lbs. of each of these together and see what we get.

100 lbs. of ammonium nitrate @34% yields 34 lbs. of usable nitrogen
100 lbs. of raw phosphorus @46% yields 46 lbs. of usable phosphorus
100 lbs. of raw potassium @60% yields 60 lbs. of usable potassium

So we end up with 300 lbs. of fertilizer that contains 34 lbs. of usable nitrogen (or 11%), 46 lbs. of usable phosphorus (or 15%), and 60 lbs. of usable potassium (or 20%). What we have is 300 lbs. of 11-15-20 fertilizer.

Every state that I am aware of periodically tests fertilizer to make sure it has the percentages advertised on the bag (same for bulk). It is a protection for the consumer to make sure he is getting what he paid for.

Whew, I am tired of talking about fertilizer.

TBone

 

[TBone]

Cowboydoc,

I am just a dumb old country boy/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif so I am easily confused. What I am saying is bulk or bag makes no difference when it comes to the analysis.

As I said in the post to Twinkletoes, practically all states periodically test fertilizer to make sure the guaranteed analysis is within certain percentages of what it is advertised to be. I feel sure that Iowa does since it is an agricultural state.

I have observed the process in Louisiana only but I'm sure it is similar in other states. The inspector takes a very small sample (a couple of ounces), weighs it and does the chemical analysis for each of the three major components (nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium).

If the proportions of the ingredients were correct and it was sufficiently mixed then the analysis will relect that. Louisiana used to allow a 15% variance simply because it's not an exact science to blend fertilizers.

The point is whether that two ounce sample comes out of a bag or out of a bulk trailer that has 40,000 lbs. the percentages should be the same. If it is 13-13-13 fertilizer the sample should contain 13% of each of the three ingredients.

I haven't thought about fertilizer analysis for a long time but I may dream about it tonight.

TBone

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

TBone,

I'd trade that #300 lbs of fertilizer you just mixed for onel pick-up truck full of aged cow manure./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Al

 

[TBone]

Aha, something we can agree on./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

TBone

 

[TBone]

Cowboydoc,

I called River Valley Coop (563) 785-4406 and talked to a "fertilizer guy". He said that 40-40-40 was the "mix", not the analysis. I'm not sure what that means. He did not know what the analysis was and suggested that I call (563) 785-4406 and speak to a salesman. I called that number and the lady said that neither of them were in.

Anyway this whole thing may have started over the terminology that they use and my confusing it with the guaranteed analysis. If that is the case I profoundly apologize for starting this whole thing. If we're comparing a 13-13-13 analysis to a 40-40-40 mix then we're comparing apples to oranges.

I may call them again on Monday to satisfy my curiosity. There used to be a requirement that the guaranteed analysis had to be on any tickets, bags or invoices (kinda like the a.p.r. on loan contracts) but I'm not sure if it still does.

The "fertilizer guy" acted kinda suspicious that I was questioning the analysis but it was probably my accent, which I'm told is quite evident. He probably thought I was from the Dixie Mafia or something.

Ya'll have a good week-end. I will be going out of town and off the 'puter for a couple of days.

TBone

 

[cowboydoc]

Ok I think I see where we are not agreeing now tbone. With the mix I get in bulk it wouldn't be tested. What would be tested is the individual product before it was mixed. The numbers I have are not ratios of the total. They are the strength of the particular nitrgoen, phosphorous, or potassium. So when the product was tested the inspector would test to see if the potassium was 40 units or 90 units of the total pellet. I think what you are saying is that that particular pellet has to equal a 100. So if it's a 40 strength then that pellet would be 40 parts nitrogen and 60 parts inert ingredient. If it was 100 then the total pellet would be 100% pure nitrogen. If the inspector looked at the bulk that I got he wouldn't get a 40% 40% 40% ratio. To figure this he would have to look at each individual pellet to see if it was what it was supposed to be.

 

[paulw]

Here’s a link that defines the fertilizer composition percentages http://www.gov.nf.ca/agric/pubfact/Fertility/manures&Fertillizers.htm. The first number is the percent nitrogen as elemental (N), the second number is the available phosphorous as P2O5 (phosphorous pentoxide), the last number soluble potassium as K2O (potassium oxide).

 

[W5FL]

I just finished fertilizing 7 acres with 250 gallons liquid fertilizer. How does this compare with granular, which I normally use. The price was right at $150/ton for the liquid. Yes, it burned everything pretty well and I put it on with Grazon P+D which got most of the weeds. Now about all I have is Green Coastal growing there. What burned came back very quickly, but the weeds didn't. Sorry, but I can see no advantage in the granular over the liquid IF you have the right equipment to put the liquid on with and you furnish your own rain as it is liquid and goes to work immediately. Yes, I will use less this fall. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

 

[cowboydoc]

As far as comparison it's the same thing Wen. Problem is with the liquid like you found out you can burn it really good. You are very lucky as usually it doesn't come back. Also here you have to go through all the training and have a special applicator to put down the liquid. Did they do it for you or did you have it done? As you said you also have to have water on pasture right away with the liquid as well or it will kill it alot of times. On all my crop ground I put down liquid fertilizer but that's different. Do you have a license or are texas laws different on it? Also with liquid you have to go at a specific speed on your tractor relative to your sprayer. With the buggy they set it for you and it doesn't matter what speed you go at. Also $150/ton is extremely cheap. I wish we had fertilizer that cheap up here.

To answer your question then no there is no difference between the two but the application difference is night and day.

 

[TBone]

Wen,

You are correct. Liquid fertilizer is great as long as you get some rain on it shortly after application. Where you get permanent damage is when it is applied (in hot weather especially) and you don't get any rain for several days.

By the way, liquid fertilizer is analyzed the same way as granules: %nitrogen + %phosphorus + %potassium.

TBone

 

[fractal]

Charlie

I have the same problem here. My local farm store won't sell urea (46/0/0) or Am Nit (33/0/0) 'over the counter' any more. They only sell it to people with an account (so they can track it, or so they say).

They started getting worried after that guy blew up the building in st louie with a truck full of fertilizer and are getting even more worked up after the wtc. Can't say as I blame them.

of course, that doesn't help me with my avo's which want 1.5 pounds of nitrogen per tree per year. Urea is the cheapest form of nitrogen (at least in the quantities that I use) and is less likely to polute the ground water than many of the alternatives. I don't mind using 16:16:16 for the first feeding but I gotta find somewhere to buy 100# of urea for the rest of the season or I am afraid I am gonna mess up my soil something fierce by adding all that P and K I don't need.