Loader FEL drifts up

[Captainchaos66]

Hello everyone,

I recently acquired a 2007 Jinma 254 LE and am having a pretty odd problem with it that I cant figure out. First off, I am a newbie to tractor ownership, but I am a mechanic by trade so I know engines, and drivelines etc.

Now onto the issue: The tractor had a new FEL valve installed before I got it, so you'd think everything would work great,, well,,, nope! When the engine is given throttle the bucket starts to drift up, the more throttle the faster the drift, even when the control isn't being touched at all. There is a VERY small sweet spot in the valve that will hold the bucket stable, but even a little bump will cause the bucket to drift up once again. As you can imagine this is VERY annoying when trying to move snow, or dirt, and just drive period. Some of the things ive noticed about the FEL valve is it seems to hang just a bit when pushing up on it, this has the added effect of making controlling the bucket pretty wobbly and jerky. From what little information I've been able to find on this valve and setup I can say with some confidence that all the lines are connected properly, the hydraulic tank is full of fluid, yes there is a MINOR leak in a cylinder, but its barely enough to notice unless using for a long duration.

One other thing I've noticed is when the handle is pushed all the way down the bucket doesn't move at all. When the handle is raised off the DOWN position it will start to move up until it hits the sweet spot of neutral, when the bucket stops, then even the slightest movement upwards of the handle and the bucket will drop under its own weight. This leads me to another issue. As per my limited experience with tractors, shouldn't DOWN also be controllable? In other words, shouldn't I be able to control how fast the bucket goes down the same I can control up?

In summation ANY advice, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. This tractor is mine temporarily ( it belongs to my work, but they never use it). I'd rather not dump a TON of money into it, however it would be nice to have it working somewhat reliably.

Thanks to all who read and/or respond!

Newbie,
Captainchaos :cool2:

 

[quicksandfarmer]

What kind of loader do you have? The Koyker loaders (or mine does at least) have a valve where all the way in the down position puts it into float mode. In float mode the hydraulics are released and the loader moves freely, it's useful for getting the bucket to follow the contours of the land. So up and down are not symmetrical.

What you're seeing is not normal. Either your loader valve is not working, or there is a problem somewhere else in the hydraulics. I would try to focus on the loader valve and establishing whether it is working or not before going off on what could be a wild goos chase elsewhere in the system. Hydraulic valves should be simple devices, you push on the lever and hydraulic fluid moves where it's supposed to go. The simplest test of the valve would be to swap it with one that you know is good. Failing that, if the tilt seems to be working and the lift isn't, you could switch the tilt hoses with the lift hoses and see what happens.


Jinma hydraulics are unusual, see post #15 in this thread for a discussion of why. The thing about the way they are set up is that it allows back-pressure on the hydraulic valve. On my jinma, if the bucket is in float, and there is back-pressure, the bucket will rise. This is a rare occurrence so I just deal with it. I don't want to send you off in the wrong direction but it sounds like what you are experiencing is at least superficially similar but worse.

 

[Captainchaos66]

Thank you for the response! I was wondering if it could just switch the lift/tilt hoses, but being new to hydraulics and since the tractor isn't TECNICALLY mine I was being cautious with that. Your info on the Float setting actually make since, when the handle is pushed all the way down the bucket will stay in in whatever position it is in.
The FEL setup is a JM/ZL 20. Which I'm guessing means its a Jinma bucket. I would like to be able to swap out the valve, however it was replaced before I got the tractor, and the old valve is MIA. I've priced out new valves to almost $400, and, ya, that's not in the budget LOL.
As a newbie, this may seem like a dumb question but I'll post it anyway: Could the issue be that a spring inside the valve isn't doing its job? The way the handle binds up in a certain spot, it seems like either a spring is broken or not set correctly, or something to that affect. Again, that may be way off the make, but it could happen...
Thanks again for the reply, I'm going to switch the lines and see what happens, what could go wrong?

Captainchaos66

 

[Bob Rooks]

I think it would help a lot if we had some info on that new valve.
Does it have detents where it holds a spool position?
Does it have the regen function?
Does it have a make and model number?

 

[LD1]

Easiest way to isolate the valve as either being the cause or not, is swap the hoses.

Make left and right become lift/lower. And make up and down become curl and dump.

Could also swap JUST the two lift hoses around and see if the drift goes to drifting down. And drifting down faster when you rev it

Could be some debris caught in the linkage or springs in the bottom can of the valve. IF its cable operated , that could be a problem if out of adjustment. And finally, it could be the loader valve spool itself leaking by.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Lots of good advice in the previous two posts. It would probably be a good idea to identify the valve model and establish if it was actually an appropriate replacement.

If it turns out that the problem is junk in the valve it's probably time for a filter change. Might be why the previous valve was replaced.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I remember reading on this site that a lot of 254's of about that vintage had a problem with a plastic piece on the under-seat filter that would disintegrate. Little pieces of plastic would get everywhere in the hydraulic system and cause havoc. My recollection was it was an easy fix, I think just replacing the filter with a newer one.

 

[Captainchaos66]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I looked at the valve and couldn't find a single number on it anywhere. While doing some research yesterday, I found a site that sells the exact valve I have, but wouldn't know, I cant find it today
Apparently these tractors came with two different valves, and I have the newer one. The reason it was replaced is because the old valve didn't have float, and this one does, which according to the site I found is one of the advantages of getting the newer one.

In answer to Bob Rooks, according to my research the valve has Regen feature, but I'm not ashamed to admit I don't know what the means... Same with your question about detents and spool,, I'm a hydraulic/Tractor newbie,, lol.

Heres a picture of the valve that's in the tractor. I'm not sure were it was purchased from because I wasn't involved with it at that time. FEL Valve for Front End Loader (New Joystick Style) | Jinma Tractor Parts, Farm Pro Tractor Parts | Circle G Tractor Parts

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I will be digging into it more in a few days, and will put them to practice to see what happens. With that in mind, can video's be posted here? I could take a video of what the tractor does, etc, maybe that will help with helping me?
Thanks all!

EDIT: While looking more closely at the picture I posted, I realized that's not the SAME one I have... everything is the same except the round parts on the right, which I'm assuming are springs. On mine the TOP one is the same length, but the bottom one is longer than the one pictured. Not sure if that makes a difference, but can hurt?

 

[Bob Rooks]

This is the one I retro-fitted to my dozer because it also has a FEL attachment.
2 SPOOL COMPACT 1 GPM JOYSTICK CONTROL VALVE | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

The regen (regeneration) feature provides an almost instantaneous dump (uncurl) of the bucket through valve porting rather than the oil returning to the reservoir. A very desirable feature.

Yes, you can post videos here via a YouTube link, or indirectly using the filmstrip icon in the above toolbar. This is a copy-and-paste YouTube link:
Rooting for Roots - YouTube

 

[quicksandfarmer]

EDIT: While looking more closely at the picture I posted, I realized that's not the SAME one I have... everything is the same except the round parts on the right, which I'm assuming are springs. On mine the TOP one is the same length, but the bottom one is longer than the one pictured. Not sure if that makes a difference, but can hurt?

The valve itself is a piston that moves in a cylinder. The thing on the right is where the piston goes into when you push on the handle. When you have float that piston travels further to go into float mode so it has a longer cylinder.

 

[Captainchaos66]

Hmmmm,,, So pushing the handle all the way down is float? Maybe, just maybe I'm working it wrong... Should the handle STAY all the way down so the bucket doesn't move when driving? All this time I thought that when the handle was pushed all the way down, and it stopped moving, something was wrong.. maybe it was me who was wrong,, lol.. I'm going to take a video to show exactly what I'm doing and what it's doing. Will be much more clearer than me explaining it,, lol.
Again, thanks all for the replies, much appreciated!


UPDATE: Tractor Issues - YouTube here is a short video I made of what the tractor is doing, and how the handle operates. I wanted to make it short and simple, but if more is needed I can easily accommodate.
Thanks everyone!

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Just so we're clear, on my tractor you push the handle down to make the bucket go up and vice versa. From the video it looks like yours is the same way. On mine, to put it into float I push the handle all the way up -- making the bucket go down -- and it clicks and stays there. The bucket will now slowly fall to ground, and will follow the contours of the ground as I drive, going up and down with the terrain.

Watching the video, what's going on is not normal. I noticed the curl is working normally. If you don't apply any up-down force, but use the curl, does the bucket keep rising? Also, does using the steering or the 3 point lift affect the bucket rising? I'm just trying to see if using the hydraulic system elsewhere makes any difference.

In addition to switching the hoses around, one thing to try is getting a hydraulic gauge and taking some readings. There should be a quick-connect on each side of the loader valve so you can take the loader off and still run the tractor. If you get a gauge with quick-connects on it you can put it inline either upstream or downstream of the valve. In this hydraulic system there should be negligible pressure when no work is being done, and there should be negligible pressure downstream of the valve even if the valve is doing work. Take readings upstream and downstream, when the bucket is lifting and when you're holding the lever to keep it from listing. Also take a reading with the FEL disconnected and the fluid going straight through. That may tell us where the issue is.

 

[Captainchaos66]

Its tough to really asses if using the curl actually affects the rise/lower because the handle is so twitchy just a millimeter up and the bucket starts rising. I'd have to lean towards no, it doesn't affect the bucket because if I hold the handle just right I can curl in and out without going up or down. Working the steering also does not SEEM to affect the bucket issues. As for the 3ph, I honestly don't even know if that works.. if moved the levers that are SUPPOSED to control it, however nothing really seems to happen. While this may seem like an issue, I did notice some of the linkage running to the 3ph don't seem to be adjusted or even hooked up.
I am going to dig into more like this weekend, haven't had much time recently, and I've only had it a few days. Since it's basically a " loaner" i'm not sure how much money I want to put in to it. First thing I want to do is swap the hoses around, if that even HELPS the issue, I can live with it until the boss decides if he wants to buy parts/tools for it.
"On mine, to put it into float I push the handle all the way up -- making the bucket go down -- and it clicks and stays there. The bucket will now slowly fall to ground, and will follow the contours of the ground as I drive, going up and down with the terrain." Well now, this is definitely interesting. Perhaps I've been thinking wrongly about how the controls should work. I thought " float" was the bucket stays where is it, IE: half way up or 4 inches off the ground, etc. Also, on yours you say " it clicks and stays there", there is a spot on my controls where it seems to " click" and the bucket drops pretty quickly. I'm going to work it soon, and actually pay attention to what ITs doing as opposed to what I THINK it should be doing,, maybe it's partly use error.... I'm sure THAT never happens,,, lol
Thanks for the tips/info, much appreciated

 

[quicksandfarmer]

The other thing I noticed in the video is that the handle linkage just seemed sloppy. It almost seemed like the weight of the handle was pulling down on the valve when it was unsupported. Is it possible that the handle was put on wrong or is missing a spring?

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Its tough to really asses if using the curl actually affects the rise/lower because the handle is so twitchy just a millimeter up and the bucket starts rising. I'd have to lean towards no, it doesn't affect the bucket because if I hold the handle just right I can curl in and out without going up or down. Working the steering also does not SEEM to affect the bucket issues. As for the 3ph, I honestly don't even know if that works.. if moved the levers that are SUPPOSED to control it, however nothing really seems to happen. While this may seem like an issue, I did notice some of the linkage running to the 3ph don't seem to be adjusted or even hooked up.
I am going to dig into more like this weekend, haven't had much time recently, and I've only had it a few days. Since it's basically a " loaner" i'm not sure how much money I want to put in to it. First thing I want to do is swap the hoses around, if that even HELPS the issue, I can live with it until the boss decides if he wants to buy parts/tools for it.
"On mine, to put it into float I push the handle all the way up -- making the bucket go down -- and it clicks and stays there. The bucket will now slowly fall to ground, and will follow the contours of the ground as I drive, going up and down with the terrain." Well now, this is definitely interesting. Perhaps I've been thinking wrongly about how the controls should work. I thought " float" was the bucket stays where is it, IE: half way up or 4 inches off the ground, etc. Also, on yours you say " it clicks and stays there", there is a spot on my controls where it seems to " click" and the bucket drops pretty quickly. I'm going to work it soon, and actually pay attention to what ITs doing as opposed to what I THINK it should be doing,, maybe it's partly use error.... I'm sure THAT never happens,,, lol
Thanks for the tips/info, much appreciated

You can check out the action of the lever with the engine off. Both lift and curl should want to spring back to the center when you let go of the handle, there should be a slight "notch" at the center where the handle wants to stay there. On the lift control there should be another notch where if you push it all the way down it stays there, that's float.

 

[Captainchaos66]

I finally got the chance to take the valve apart, and found something puzzling. The spring for the Curl valve is adjustable, but the spring for up and down isn't... now i'm definitely not an expert, but this doesn't seem to make any sense. Why would curl need an adjustment? So with that being said, i'm going to throw caution out the window and switch the adjuster to the up/down valve and see what happens. I don't really see anything complicated about the control assembly, so worst case scenario,, it doesn't change anything.
I spoke with the person who installed the assembly, he said it was new and already assembled. He also said it worked perfectly the after it was installed. The tractor sat for about 2 years before it was used again, and that is when the problem was noticed.. my guess is when the spring was new there was enough tension to make everything work,, but as it sat, the spring lost some tension, hence causing the drift, which would be why the adjuster should be on the up/down.
I'll update when I get it all put back together. Once the bucket situation is fixed, i'll be moving on to the PTO and 3ph setup.. joy of joys,, lol..

 

[Captainchaos66]

SUCCESS


Long story short, after studying the valve for a while, putting it together, taking it apart, cleaning it,, etc.. I reinstalled it in the machine and BOOOOOO YAAAAA!!!! Float works as it should, no more drift, no more bucket dropping so fast it shakes the tractor.. everything works as it should,, AND,, nothing exploded, nothing leaks!!!!

Thanks to everyone who responded, and especially Quicksandfarmer for the great suggestions, and helpful hints!!! I have more questions/issues I will definitely be returning here to you great folks!!

 

[quicksandfarmer]

SUCCESS


Long story short, after studying the valve for a while, putting it together, taking it apart, cleaning it,, etc.. I reinstalled it in the machine and BOOOOOO YAAAAA!!!! Float works as it should, no more drift, no more bucket dropping so fast it shakes the tractor.. everything works as it should,, AND,, nothing exploded, nothing leaks!!!!

Thanks to everyone who responded, and especially Quicksandfarmer for the great suggestions, and helpful hints!!! I have more questions/issues I will definitely be returning here to you great folks!!

Awesome! Congratulations.

So did you end up switching the spring, or was it just cleaning and reassembling?

You may want to consider a fluid and filter change.

 

[Captainchaos66]

I left the springs the originally way. I to the spring assembly completely apart, and found the ball bearings that make the float work to be gunked up. I also believe the float " sleeve" was backwards, but that could be my imagination.
Judging from the amount of dirt that was in the spring assemblies I am definitely going to change the filter at the very least, they don't look like they've ever been changed, which is troubling. On the plus side if it starts acting up again, I now know I don't really have to pull the whole valve to take the springs off, which is pretty cool.
Of course, just after that problem got fixed, another popped up oughta nowhere: The electrical system randomly shuts down! If the tractors running its no big deal, diesel and all, but it's done it a few times while I'm trying to start it!
*sigh* The joys of owning an old machine... love it one day,, hate it the next... such is life I guess...

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I left the springs the originally way. I to the spring assembly completely apart, and found the ball bearings that make the float work to be gunked up. I also believe the float " sleeve" was backwards, but that could be my imagination.
Judging from the amount of dirt that was in the spring assemblies I am definitely going to change the filter at the very least, they don't look like they've ever been changed, which is troubling. On the plus side if it starts acting up again, I now know I don't really have to pull the whole valve to take the springs off, which is pretty cool.
Of course, just after that problem got fixed, another popped up oughta nowhere: The electrical system randomly shuts down! If the tractors running its no big deal, diesel and all, but it's done it a few times while I'm trying to start it!
*sigh* The joys of owning an old machine... love it one day,, hate it the next... such is life I guess...

The keyswitches are known to fail. That's where I'd look first. Also make sure all the fuses are seated firmly.

The electrical system is dead simple. Really not many parts.