Redneckford, a couple things to be considered when trying to get to the bottom of any scheme is Motive and opportunity,a check of the Escorts group shows it to be among the largest Financial conglomerates in india,it is apparent they are excellent business people and it seems to me that they would not allow a subsidiary of theirs to embark on a move to gain highly desired inroads into american markets without a very solid business plan in place, I can not see a motive to deliberately deplete the resources of a potentially profitable venture,although any good businessman knows that unproductive employees left unmanaged will reak havoc on a business's profit margin.For the firm of Alverez & Marsal to leave a company they had been hired to save from financial disaster, mired in red ink would be a black mark on their reputation, I don't see that happening either. Textron most certainly would not expend large amounts of capital on a company just to cause it's downfall.no motive there.more likely it was not a failure caused by any corporation, but rather by individuals within corporations, by whom and where located is the question to be answered.the fact that Farmtrac failed and who was to blame has not been the issue with the Farmtrac dealers, but rather the manner in which the results of the failure have been handled.I think the biggest obstacle to overcome is the fact Textron,Farmtrac and Escorts all work out of one or two large offices with many employees, while dealers work out of 285 (more or less)offices with very few personell. each corporation operates with a corporate mindset, while dealers have to contend with 285 individual mindsets.it has been difficult to come to a meeting of the minds between the dealers and Textron on how best to solve the problem,but good people have been working hard behind the scenes and much progress has been made, I am confidant that we will overcome the tremendous blow suffered by all, a little poorer, a little wiser, but still maintaining that get-ur-done spirit.---------Taxpayer
FarmTrac Troubles
- Thread starter gamble77
- Start date
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To all Farmtrac owners:
This is the week that the dealer co-op representatives meet in London, England with Escorts Limited the manufacturer of Farmtrac to talk about setting up a parts supply line. My impression is that financing has been promised by a third company. If Escorts wants to do something to meet part of their obligation as a world citizen I would think they would be happy to sell parts to the dealer co-op. If they only want to hold Farmtrac,North America dealers (and tractor owners) hostage to the past failed policies of Escorts LTD then it may be different. It has been unusally quiet this morning on the dealer only web site. I think everyone is holding their breath to see what comes out of this meeting. Ever since the dealer site was set up it had been a very busy place. People have worked very hard trying to make it possible for the parts supply to restart.
Let's all wish the dealer representatives a safe trip and the best possible success. Let's all hope that Rajan Nanda of Escorts has finally decided to do the right thing.
This is the week that the dealer co-op representatives meet in London, England with Escorts Limited the manufacturer of Farmtrac to talk about setting up a parts supply line. My impression is that financing has been promised by a third company. If Escorts wants to do something to meet part of their obligation as a world citizen I would think they would be happy to sell parts to the dealer co-op. If they only want to hold Farmtrac,North America dealers (and tractor owners) hostage to the past failed policies of Escorts LTD then it may be different. It has been unusally quiet this morning on the dealer only web site. I think everyone is holding their breath to see what comes out of this meeting. Ever since the dealer site was set up it had been a very busy place. People have worked very hard trying to make it possible for the parts supply to restart.
Let's all wish the dealer representatives a safe trip and the best possible success. Let's all hope that Rajan Nanda of Escorts has finally decided to do the right thing.
redlevel
Gold Member
longtrman said:
I don't suppose there is any chance that they will reach any kind of agreement that includes honoring remaining warranty on tractors sold within the last two years? Or to make the refunds due those of us who got stuck with the "less than zero" fiasco?
Acquiring financing and establishing a parts supply are important, but if dealers think this will restore the Farmtrac name without correcting the other things I mentioned, I think they are wrong.
I certainly hope the dealer reps are successful in getting the parts supply pipeline set up.
redneckford
Platinum Member
THIRD PARTY FINANCING-----?????----AIN'T that what has caused most of the problems for the dealers and the customers? If Escorts is that large of a financial concern in India shouldn't they have the resources to finance a little parts distribution network at the tune of 5-6 million dollars. I do not Like the sound of the "THIRD PARTY" angle!!!! Somebody is going to get burned again. Do you really think a customer is going to come to the dealership and "Pay" for a part that is suppose to be under warranty? Who is going to take the hit when the dealer has to "give" that part to the customer. You better reread the law about warranty---If the Dealer has the part and ability to fix the problem he/she will have to do it on their nickel. So be careful on this agreement!!!!!
SESS
Gold Member
redlevel said:
IF a parts program is set up, that will in no way "FIX" what has happened to us all and the dealers are not nieve to think that this will fix anything. But it is a start to trying to resolve part of the problem. The dealers, for the most part, have taken on this parts co-op program themselves. It is something that has been worked on since all this broke back in Jan. There is possible financing for the dealers to get parts for their customers, but it is costing us first. Unfortunately, I feel that the any warranty is a no go. Sad and extremely frustrating but foreigners, specifically Indians, never "believed" in warranty anyways. Anything they could do to get out of paying for a warranty claim they would do.
As for the "not-even-zero" rebates, we are hopefully that the Federal Government will help out with that. Again, a very sad situation. The NEZ program was fraud in the fullest form it could be and to think that $2.9 million was stolen from fellow Americans just rots my stomach.
We dealers are trying just as hard as we can to make things right with our customers and hope that the customers realize that. I know that in our dealership we have eaten out of our own pocket whatever costs a customer would have encountered. To say that it has almost put us in the poor house is an understatement. The blue tractors are great pieces of equipment with a great dealer base. We all just hope that at the end of this, each dealer still has a company to call their own and their reputation still in tact!
Good luck and safe trip to those dealers attending the meeting in London!
[QUOTE
As for the "not-even-zero" rebates, we are hopefully that the Federal Government will help out with that. Again, a very sad situation. The NEZ program was fraud in the fullest form it could be and to think that $2.9 million was stolen from fellow Americans just rots my stomach.
Has anyone had any help or response from our government officials on the "not even zero" problem? We and our customers sent emails some time ago and did not even get a response. Now if they are working on things that is one thing if they are not we need to put more pressure on them. Most of us are solid small town people who know right and wrong. We also remember who helped and who didn't come election time.
Case
As for the "not-even-zero" rebates, we are hopefully that the Federal Government will help out with that. Again, a very sad situation. The NEZ program was fraud in the fullest form it could be and to think that $2.9 million was stolen from fellow Americans just rots my stomach.
Has anyone had any help or response from our government officials on the "not even zero" problem? We and our customers sent emails some time ago and did not even get a response. Now if they are working on things that is one thing if they are not we need to put more pressure on them. Most of us are solid small town people who know right and wrong. We also remember who helped and who didn't come election time.
Case
redlevel said:
I just heard from the dealer rep on the dealer only site. Nothing is off the table. They do plan to come down hard on Escorts about Less Than Zero and the lost warranty. Personally I don't hope for much. If Escorts had been much of a world citizen they would have honored the warranty all a long--after all they made the tractors. Like Case said we have to try for as much as we can, accept what we get and then work at getting more. The dealer group is not trying to restart Farmtrac,NA--that is beyond our power. We don't even worry about Farmtrac,NA 's reputation--they did that to themselves and to us also. We are merely trying one step at a time to make things the best we can for our customers and friends. The dealers really aren't able to do the big strokes they would like to--some dealers owe from $5000 to $165000 interest to the floor plan company in addition to the principle on the tractors. When interest is acruing at 12% on from one to maybe 40 or more tractors without sales it hurts big time. We just do what we can about today--yesterday is done we can't repair it. If we can sell the tractors we have and service them with parts without all 285 dealers going bankrupt that will be somewhat success. Most of the dealers including myself have done warranty work with no hope of ever getting paid. One of my customers heard that Farmtrac failed offered to pay me for warranty work I did on his tractor last December. Some dealers have much more that they will never see. Please don't try to punish us for what Escorts or Farmtrac,NA did to us--we are the ones trying to get some order to keep the value of your tractor from plumetting. But on the other hand they are really pretty much just ford tractors with somebody else's decals. You can't punish the iron. You can only punish the dealers trying to help you. Does that make sense?
redneckford
Platinum Member
SURE does but it seems that the laws of the land work against the hard working individual with no money and alot of debt. (No money to make big campaign contributions and very little time to campaign against the wrongs of the world) How can anyone explain how the dealers were dumped on the customers were duped and no one from the government has made a move to right this wrong. It just seems the harder you guys try to right a wrong the more you get punished for it from the very laws that are suppose to make America the Country of choice around the world. They are still dieing to come to this country!!! When the news organization will not even take the story and run with it you know something smells to high heaven cause they love to report bad news. THIS IS NOT JUST BUSINESS-----THIS IS STEALING!!!!!!!
redneckford
Platinum Member
P.S. you can't come down hard with your hat in your hand cause you are the one that will have to take what they will give. Someone better listen to T----p---- and get to work on public---public opinion cause that is the only thing that politicians understand and that is the only way this disaster will ever be solved for the good of "all" American citizens---dealers and customers!!!!!!----LOUD and PROUD it is the only way!!!!
and PROUD it is the only way!!!!I checked with my attorney back when this all began and he told me the same thing Redneck,Dealers who have parts in their stock that they have paid for out of their pockets,will most likely eat the expense to fix the customer's tractor, there may be no one to warranty the parts and maybe not the labor.most dealers, myself included will shoulder the load out of customer loyalty and respect.we can only hope for customer understanding if the load gets too heavy.Escorts has had many opportunities to step to the plate, as LS-Cable did.they have instead choose to make more profit off the dealer's misfortune.if they wanted to do the right thing, the parts would be sitting on the dock, marked paid.----- taxpayerredneckford said:
What EXACTLY is "the government" supposed to do? If Escorts did something illegal, and you can prove it - take it to the state attorney general, or local federal prosecuting attorney. Or, file a legal action in court yourself. How about YOU do something to help yourself instead of just complaining about the situation and wanting somebody else to take care of it for you?
Why do people think "the government" should take care of them whenever life gets inconvenient?
Please, if you have some type of idea as to what "the government" should do - how about naming it exactly? You want a bail out? You want a new retro-active law passed? You want them prosecuted for....?
swines said:
Farmtrac,NA is history---they can no longer be prosecuted by any legal agency. But there are more tractor companies that could do the same thing to the American public. The idea is to have a process in place to protect the other customers and dealers and hopefully prevent a reocurrance of this mess. We don't expect to ever profit from the prosecution of either Farmtrac,NA or Escorts, LTD. It's strange, if you read on the net FARMTRAc,NA owned Farmtrac, Poland. The companies that lost money can't even sue for Farmtrac, PL even though Farmtrac,PL was an asset of Farmtrac,NA. If the United States Justice dept can determine that Farmtrac,NA was an agent of Escorts, LTD rather than a subsidiary then possibly they could be charged in the World Trade organization. Escorts chose all the top brass at Farmtrac. All the top brass were Indians. To me that is enough to make Farmtrac an agent rather than a subsidiary. If a money trail can be followed taking us directly to Escorts (a lot of money appears to be missing) then that also would add credence to the theory of agency as opposed to subsidiary. To me the idea that a foreign company can wash it's hands of the sins of it's subsidiary is ludicrus. But as things stand now a foreign company can create a subsidiary, do unethical possibly illegal things through the subsidiary, bancrupt the subsidiary and walk away. It is called free trade. No one wants to stand in the way of free trade. As far as myself "Free trade be damned"--"Fair trade is the only way to go." These are things that need to be looked at in the justice department and followed by legislation in congress.
Suppose somone purchased General Motors now that they are down. Suppose this new company forced excessive amounts of inventory on the car dealers saying "They will never come due" and suppose this company told the car customers that they would get a check every 6 months that more than offset the amount of the interest. And then suppose this company bankrupted the subsidiary which would also bankrupt the dealers and cheat the customers out of the checks they were promised to induce them to buy a new car. Would you not want some way for the U.S. to recover? Are we always to be cheated by other nations and not stand up for ourselves.
At last I heard the Farmtrac matter was sent to the justice dept. for investigation. Several congress people from several states are following this investigation. The problem now is Macs. Freddiemac, Indymac and Fanniemae will take all of congresses attention for a good while to come!
Now that a foreign company has successfully perpurtrated this crime on America I fully expect every con-artist in the world will want to try it at least once.
If GM was telling me all that stuff I'd probably go buy that Vette I've been wanting.longtrman said:
As far as the Mac situation, it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. Also, the ethnicity of the "top brass" is a non issue, there are crooks of all flavors. There seems to be a disproportionate number of them in the S&L business. Haven't seen a whole lot of Indian folks in the bank lately.John
Hello all !
He was with Long for more than 20 years before Escorts arrived, so that means he was "grandfathered" in.
I'm confident that the Farmtrac situation will inevitably make it to court and the retailer will be called to support his claim "I'd take the oath and tell that to a jury."
Count on Yours Truly to be attentively sitting in court that day with pen and pad in hand, grinding off pages of notes.
The Enron debacle was in the U.S. ... and the criminal justice system had more exponentially more leverage on home soil.
--b
I'm not sure if they *chose* CFO Alton Cobb.longtrman said:
He was with Long for more than 20 years before Escorts arrived, so that means he was "grandfathered" in.
Speaking of "show me the money" trail ... I've listened to some da**ning accusations from an East Coast Farmtrac retailer who believes he has a pretty good idea where the money -- and the modalities needed to get it there.longtrman said:
I'm confident that the Farmtrac situation will inevitably make it to court and the retailer will be called to support his claim "I'd take the oath and tell that to a jury."
Count on Yours Truly to be attentively sitting in court that day with pen and pad in hand, grinding off pages of notes.
No, but their status as citizen of another country makes a *hu-hu-huuuuge* difference in how much teeth (or in this case, lack thereof) the law has."NewToy said:
The Enron debacle was in the U.S. ... and the criminal justice system had more exponentially more leverage on home soil.
--b
Ethnicity really doesn't have a part to play. My point was Escorts had a huge control over FARMTRAC,NA. I don't think that FARMTRAc would have gone to India to recruit management "talent" on their own. It shows me that Escorts called the shots and should have to be responsible for loosing the game. Is that not correct?NewToy said:If GM was telling me all that stuff I'd probably go buy that Vette I've been wanting.
John
swines said:
We have done what you have suggested. Brought the info. to several agencies. Our representative in our area did not even repley. If you were as smart as you keep telling yourself you are you would know this takes time and continuious pressure. That is what I was trying to do. I don't honestly think our government will do anything, when I know that nothing has been done I will take final action into my own hands(all legal) I will stop trying to play nice with the people who knew what was going on. Until then we need to play the game. What I can't tolerate is a very loud uninformed finger pointer. When you know the facts or are up to your necks in it, then make comments like you did. How would you like it if your tractor dealer told you that he was not going to do what he promised, as far as price, interest rate and warranty. You would be the first one complaining to the world. That is not what the Farmtrac dealers did. They dug into their own pockets and covered warranties and honered the comitments they made. We treated our customers they way we should treat our neighbors. Do you not want that kind of respect.
We are not asking for bailouts. That is just moving the debt onto people like yourself.
Do it ourselves? Who is trying to take care of their customers by setting up a parts source. Who is answering tech. questions for people all over the country. Who is trying to cover warranties themselves. Who is doing this to keep customers going. The answer is the Dealers. NOT our government. Not your elected officials. NOT YOU! It would be easier to walk away and spend my time on more profitable areas in my business but I will continue to due what is right.
I don't take government programs. I don't have any government loans. Had no help from federal programs. I did it with the grace from God and hard, hard work. The one thing I ask and demand from my government is to enforce the law. Our elected officials are elected to represent us.
Case
SESS
Gold Member
case1570 said:
COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF CASE1570!!
I am one of the folks that spent MANY, MANY hours and a whole lot of dollars calling, faxing, mailing, talking,talking and talking some more to our government agencies in hope of finding SOMEONE to listen to the issues plaguing the customers effected by the not even zero program. I talked to every house rep, senator, congress, commissioner, sheriff that I could get my hands on in the state of FL and everyone told me, sorry, can't help! But I did find help outside of state of FL that have initiated a congressional inquiry with the Federal Trade Commissioner. I had a 100 NO's before I got 2 YES's. It takes an enormous amount of time and patience, but it paid off. Will anything be resolved, it is way to early to tell. But it takes work from everyone to keep pounding the door of your elected officials. You will not get their attention with only one person calling, writing,emailing, faxing, etc. It takes LARGE #'s. So Mr. Swine-if you were a Farmtrac customer grossly effected by this mess-give me a call and I will gladly forward to you every name and phone # that I came up with on my own dollar to help people like you and then you can start working instead of complaining.
The dealers are not asking for a bailout, handout or a free ride. We are just looking for ways to help YOU the customer and have a business to pay our own bills at the end of a day. I wish that I could use all the tractors I have fixed this year for our customers with the parts I bought-but that is not why we fixed the tractors. ALL OF US DEALERS have worked for free this year because it was the right thing to do for our customers. The customers did not ask to be screwed by Farmtrac and neither did we dealers-BUT the dealers are the only ones here willing to help and help we have done!
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I would rather focus on those agencys most likely to take action to sort this whole mess out, namely the FBI and the IRS.without access to farmtrac records,it is just theory as to what transpired to cause these events and by whom.I believe I have put together enough info in a logical sequense to arouse their interest.what they choose to do with it, I cannot control, but as least I will have tried,I wish we would not bicker and fingerpoint on this forum,after all we're all trying to accomplish the same thing,just in different ways and the amount of information,talent and determination brought to bear on the big boys through the use of these forums has been why we are still here and able to carry on the fight.the most valueable resource we have is US, lets keep US together.----taxpayer
Thanks Case and SESS for your posts but please don't be hurt. The post of mine that started this was just meant to give heart to the people that have Farmtrac tractors and don't know where to get parts. Everybody please be glad for the dealers who are going to England on their own nickle in order to try to set up a parts supply line for you. They are very good and generous people and very talented managers. Something good should come out of it. The other posters have had their feelings hurt from this Farmtrac mess and with good reason. They have a right to know however that there are about 67 of 285 ex-Farmtrac dealers actively trying every avenue to help the past and future customers of their dealerships and past Farmtrac customers. Notice I did not say future Farmtrac customers because Farmtrac,NA is history. If someone buys the Tarboro property that was occupied by Farmtrac,NA it won't be Farmtrac. All the buyer will get will be physical assets. You don't have to worry that we are trying to restart Farmtrac--it will never happen. But we have to get parts and if possible service for the tractors. We have to try to sell the remaining blue tractors. Remember the blue tractors did not do anything to you. Tractors don't cheat you --however unscrupuluos companies do . But that company is gone--let's move on. Please do not try to punish the blue tractors. Please do not try to punish the dealers who are trying to help you. We have to do what we can for ouselves also. You think it is selfish for us to try to keep from losing a life time of work and our business property and probably our homes also--after all your tractor has lost half of it's value. Really think about it. We are possible going to lose everything we worked for for our lifetime and yet we still try to help you. And all you do is complain when I try to tell you have heart we are working on getting the parts flowing again. We would like to be able to report that Escorts has decided to be a good world citizen and live up to its responibilities as a manufacturer of a tractor---It ain't a gonna happen. They cheated you and they cheated the dealers much much more. You say why don't the dealers just declare bankruptcy and walk away form it all. The dealers all--including green and yellow, red, orange--had to sign a personal guarantee guaranteeing that if their companies didn't have the money to pay the floor plan company that they would--in other words they lose everything.
If someone does buy the former Farmtrac property don't try to punish them for what Farmtrac and Escorts did. If it is the Korean company they are only trying to help the people who purchased Korean tractors from Farmtrac. It won't be Farmtrac. If they purchase all assets then they may have blue tractors to sell as well as selling their new production. Don't punish the tractors--they are iron and don't feel a thing.
People keep saying that the dealers should have been upfront about it and told the tractor owners before things got bad. Honestly we heard about Farmtracs problems on the TractorByNet.com site. Think about the hourly paid workers at Tarboro--they went on working for five weeks without being told the money to pay their salaries won't be coming from India. If they worked in the plant for five weeks without knowing Farmtrac was bancrupt how is a dealer 200 to 1500 miles away supposed to know. Everybody please don't be hurt and try to calm down and work together for a good solution that benefits all. Thank you.
If someone does buy the former Farmtrac property don't try to punish them for what Farmtrac and Escorts did. If it is the Korean company they are only trying to help the people who purchased Korean tractors from Farmtrac. It won't be Farmtrac. If they purchase all assets then they may have blue tractors to sell as well as selling their new production. Don't punish the tractors--they are iron and don't feel a thing.
People keep saying that the dealers should have been upfront about it and told the tractor owners before things got bad. Honestly we heard about Farmtracs problems on the TractorByNet.com site. Think about the hourly paid workers at Tarboro--they went on working for five weeks without being told the money to pay their salaries won't be coming from India. If they worked in the plant for five weeks without knowing Farmtrac was bancrupt how is a dealer 200 to 1500 miles away supposed to know. Everybody please don't be hurt and try to calm down and work together for a good solution that benefits all. Thank you.
