IH3444
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Fall of Rome?
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RoyJackson
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This kind of comparison has been around for a lot of years...longer then I've been alive.
Although I don't particularly agree with this guy...I do think the US has passed it's prime as far as a superpower...definitely economically...and, soon enough as a military power.
Although I don't particularly agree with this guy...I do think the US has passed it's prime as far as a superpower...definitely economically...and, soon enough as a military power.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
]RoyJackson said:
That, and the guy standing along side of the highway exit this morning had a new sign. It said "The End is Near". What more evidence do you need?
Yesterday he was laying along side the road, obviously stone drunk. His sign was "Please give money for alcohol research". Obviously he was well into his research phase.
Highs and lows.... At this time, I'd say the US is in a low point of our history. That doesn't mean we are at our LOWEST point, nor does it indicate we're going to continue in our decline. We have to have a little faith.
deereman64
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The only problem is that I have to take issue with Mr Walker's analysis of the fall of Rome" declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”. Im afraid that this is a very Hollywood interpretation of the decline of Rome.
1) Gibbons argues that in fact it was the adoption of Christianity by Rome that was a significant factor in its decline. It made them soft.
2) Certainly there where periods of civil war, but it was political genius to split the empire when into the west and east. The eastern empire went on as the Byzantium empire which didnt fall until the 13th century.
3) The Generals of the Roman armies did believe in themselves but they were not adverse at forming alliances with the enemy when it suited them. The Battle of Chalons, where they defeated Attila the Hun was done with help of the Goths and Visigoths.
4) Fiscal irresponsibility. I dont think it would be fair to apply the rigours of modern economic thinking on the Romans. The tax base of the empire was based on the grain trade from North Africa. This important region was lost to the Goths and with it the tax base.
Im not going to get into modern politics but I just wanted to defend the Romans
1) Gibbons argues that in fact it was the adoption of Christianity by Rome that was a significant factor in its decline. It made them soft.
2) Certainly there where periods of civil war, but it was political genius to split the empire when into the west and east. The eastern empire went on as the Byzantium empire which didnt fall until the 13th century.
3) The Generals of the Roman armies did believe in themselves but they were not adverse at forming alliances with the enemy when it suited them. The Battle of Chalons, where they defeated Attila the Hun was done with help of the Goths and Visigoths.
4) Fiscal irresponsibility. I dont think it would be fair to apply the rigours of modern economic thinking on the Romans. The tax base of the empire was based on the grain trade from North Africa. This important region was lost to the Goths and with it the tax base.
Im not going to get into modern politics but I just wanted to defend the Romans
riptides
Super Member
Explain to me how these are related to the government being accountable?
"declining moral values and political civility at home"
I am not declining in my morals and don't give a crap about politics so why should he care? There.....
-Mike Z.
"declining moral values and political civility at home"
I am not declining in my morals and don't give a crap about politics so why should he care? There.....
-Mike Z.
N80
Super Member
I'm not sure Gibbon's theories are taken as gospel anymore, particularly that Christianity somehow made them soft. That also doesn't jibe with the facts, how soft is a society that takes great pleasure in gladitorial games, etc, etc. And Christianity making any society soft has never been bourne out in the course of history and in the middle ages and later Christian nations were overtly violent as they are today. In the early 1940's the US considered itself a 'Christian' nation and we participated in the most brutal war in the history of mankind (that's WWII for you history buffs.)
Regardless, the most important thing to remember is that Rome's decline took nearly 400 years. During that 400 years there were plenty of good things going on and many generations of Romans that thought things were just fine.
The point is, those participating in the decline of a nation rarely have insight into its causes or the speed of it descent. In fact, they don't see it at all.
And one thing can be sure, the speed of our descent will likely be as rapid as our ascension. This is not apocolyptic thinking, this is not a doomsday predicition. Its just a matter of understanding that cultures and nations do rise and fall. We will too. Sure, there are plenty of nutbags suggesting the 'end is near' but there are also plenty of very wise and thoughtful critics of western society that see in our current (late 20th and early 21st century) culture a marked decline in the things, the glue if you will, that keeps societies intact. If anyone is interested in reading what some of these critics have to say, just let me know. But by definition, a declining society will not hear what they have to say or hear their warnings.
And also keep this distinction in mind, a society/culutre can deteriorate long before the country ceases to be a military power.
As for morals, well, what other measure is there of the health of a society? Germany in the late 30's was strong economically, militarily, politically and even academically. But they were morally bankrupt.
Regardless, the most important thing to remember is that Rome's decline took nearly 400 years. During that 400 years there were plenty of good things going on and many generations of Romans that thought things were just fine.
The point is, those participating in the decline of a nation rarely have insight into its causes or the speed of it descent. In fact, they don't see it at all.
And one thing can be sure, the speed of our descent will likely be as rapid as our ascension. This is not apocolyptic thinking, this is not a doomsday predicition. Its just a matter of understanding that cultures and nations do rise and fall. We will too. Sure, there are plenty of nutbags suggesting the 'end is near' but there are also plenty of very wise and thoughtful critics of western society that see in our current (late 20th and early 21st century) culture a marked decline in the things, the glue if you will, that keeps societies intact. If anyone is interested in reading what some of these critics have to say, just let me know. But by definition, a declining society will not hear what they have to say or hear their warnings.
And also keep this distinction in mind, a society/culutre can deteriorate long before the country ceases to be a military power.
As for morals, well, what other measure is there of the health of a society? Germany in the late 30's was strong economically, militarily, politically and even academically. But they were morally bankrupt.
OP
IH3444
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"In the early 1940's the US considered itself a 'Christian' nation and we participated in the most brutal war in the history of mankind (that's WWII for you history buffs.)"
My father who was, and mostly likely still is if needed, an 82nd Airbourne Master Jump Sargent, combat engineer. He stated to me "Don't think we were the good guys in WWII, we just did what we had to do to win"
Now I'm sure that that statement has offended, and I apology, but I don't believe that being a christian softens any nation when they are at war, especially for the preservation of their country.
My father was raised a catholic, knows latin, served as an alter boy, went to catholic school for 11 years, and said that the only languages allowed to be spoken in his grandfather's (whom imigrated from germany) home here in the states were latin, and german. None of that seemed to stop him from doing what needed to be done to protect his way of life in America.
I posted the article just for informative reading. Thanks for the great replys. I have learned about new avenues of knowledge to pursue. Thanks guys!
My father who was, and mostly likely still is if needed, an 82nd Airbourne Master Jump Sargent, combat engineer. He stated to me "Don't think we were the good guys in WWII, we just did what we had to do to win"
Now I'm sure that that statement has offended, and I apology, but I don't believe that being a christian softens any nation when they are at war, especially for the preservation of their country.
My father was raised a catholic, knows latin, served as an alter boy, went to catholic school for 11 years, and said that the only languages allowed to be spoken in his grandfather's (whom imigrated from germany) home here in the states were latin, and german. None of that seemed to stop him from doing what needed to be done to protect his way of life in America.
I posted the article just for informative reading. Thanks for the great replys. I have learned about new avenues of knowledge to pursue. Thanks guys!
The downside of diversity - International Herald Tribune
More on the unravelling of our culture. It's long--don't read it if hearing that there may be a down side to diversity will disturb you, even when it comes from one of one of diversity's own promoters.
More on the unravelling of our culture. It's long--don't read it if hearing that there may be a down side to diversity will disturb you, even when it comes from one of one of diversity's own promoters.
RoyJackson
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cp1969 said:
Interesting article...and I agree with his findings.
Folks that emigrate to another country should have the expectation to assimilate themselves into that county's culture...not that this has always been allowed by the native citizens of the country being emigrated to (as an example, the Irish that emigrated to the US, or a better one, the Chinese "coolies"; both in the mid 19th century).
The US is supposed to be the "Melting Pot" which is an archaic concept now, I suppose.
However, the primary institutions (schools, churches and other entities) of the US never preached "multiculturalism". Like it or not, it was the Anglo-European culture that was dominant until the last few decades...at least in the US.
This trend to multiculturalism hasn't been a good thing for our country, IMHO. However, those who bring up this point are too often called derogatory names to stifle their views. Racist comes to mind...
Well, this is a great forum and a great web site. To continue this post would undoubtedly delve into politics in one way or another...so I'll just end it here.
I do suggest you all read that article cp1969 was kind enough to link to.
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Diversity as it has been heralded in the last 30 years or so has resulted in tribalism, or balkanization, in this country....people identifying more strongly with a particular group than with the nation, i.e. a/an "insert an ethnic/culturally diverse group name here" before or above being an American. The result has been literal culture wars in our society. The impact has been to profoundly weaken the fabric of American society, particularly the moral fabric. Consider who the media flocks to for opinions on societal issues....is it, oh, ummm....learned individuals with lots of education and experience? No.... Is it, let's see, um, is it individuals who have lived lives of sacrifice and humility to set an example for others? Nope again. It's anyone from TV or movieland with a mouth.
The article is a good read, but I'd like to see much more information before accepting any of it's claims.
All of the above is solely the opinion of this poster. I am not an expert nor do I play one on television.
The article is a good read, but I'd like to see much more information before accepting any of it's claims.
All of the above is solely the opinion of this poster. I am not an expert nor do I play one on television.