Electricity install in barn

[osu cowboy]

Hi all,
Hoping to get some info on running electricity to my barn. Here is what I have in mind:
I have a spare 50amp circuit on the house panel that I can use(previous owner used it for a hot tub and tub was removed before we moved in). I need to run electricity 275 feet to a barn and want to have enough juice for 8 light sockets in the rafters or a few fluorescent fixtures, 3 outlets for plug in power, and a couple of switches to turn on/off select lights/outlets. I have no future plans for heavy duty use in the barn so I'm thinking 110v only. I want to direct bury the line from the house to the barn. Will also lay water line in the trench. Will I need a separate panel in the barn? Should I upgrade the circuit to 100amp? What wire type/gauge for the long run? Trying to do it myself due to cash considerations so any help is appreciated.
thanks

 

[davesl708]

I hope some of the electricians on here chime in. First I am not an electrician but do not mix water in the same trench with the electrical. With a run that long you will most likely use aluminum as copper will be very expensive. Also, the voltage drop on that run will make 50 amps at the house drop to around 30 at the barn (just a rough guess). With that drop I would recommend LED lights to conserve power for other uses.

Install a small panel in the barn for your service there.

Good luck with the project.

 

[Mendonsy]

The first thing to do is check to see what your local code requirements are.
Is your 50 amp circuit 230 volt??
If it is you will need 6-3 UF cable for that run. UF is underground rated but should be enclosed in conduit so plan on running at least 1" PVC conduit (1-1/2" would be better) to the barn. Lay out the cable and install the conduit one section at a time by sliding it over the wire. That will be much easier than trying to pull 275' of 6-3 through the conduit after it is installed. Make sure to glue the joints properly with PVC cement.
A small breaker panel will be required to split the 50 amp circuit down into several 15 or 20 amp circuits for the barn. You will also need a ground stake at the barn.

 

[grsthegreat]

I am an electrical contractor. If you really dont want anything except lights and a few outlets, you can run a 110 out there, but to get 220 you only need 1 more wire. A 110 volt 20 amp circuit would require #8 copper wire for a 6.3% voltage drop, but if you add 1 extra wire for a 240 system, you can drop wire size to #10 copper for a 4.8% voltage drop and have better service.

If you really dont want more power, dont do it.

You can run water and electric in Same trench. Put water down 3 ft and fill with a foot of dirt. Then run electric. Keep a foot separation and direct buried has to be min 24" deep.

Here in north idaho, we bury water down 4-5 feet, then fill some dirt and run electrical 18-24" below surface level. 18" is if its on pipe.

Personally, i never use direct burial cause i have repaired so much of it over the years i despise it. I run conduit and thhn single runs of wire.

You can also check prices of running 1" conduit and #8 xhhw aluminum wire to a $40.00 6 space panel in barn. Sometimes it turns out as similar cost of urd direct burial, but affords protection of conduit. This would allow aprox 6% voltage drop.

Remember, pump and well and sewer installers run water and power in same trench all the time. Some local jurisdictions may have their own rules. Nec can care less.

Not sure what water burial depth requirements in your area is.

Also if you only want lights and outlets, you WILL HAVE TO replace the 50 amp breaker with one rated for the wire your running.

 

[mapper]

You may want to check out the building code regulations for this, they can be accessed on line through the Access Washington website. I would also recommend getting the necessary permits and inspections by your county building inspector, two reasons for this; if you want to sell your place in future and if you want to insure it. If your barn burns down in the future the insurance company will find an unpermitted installation to be the perfect excuse for not paying. If you decide to sell you may have to remove or retrofit to bring it up to code.
You can also find inexpensive guides for DYI writing at your local hardware or lumber yard.

 

[buickanddeere]

All good answers .
120V only at the barn is not going to save time, money or effort. And someday, somebody will curse you for not running 240V. Run cable inside conduit. Barn will require two ground rods or a ground plate buried 8ft or deeper. Run bare number six copper to the barn's ground bar and also tie it to the bare ground wire pulled in from the house.
As stated numerous times before . The neutral bar in the barn panel must float isolated from the barn's ground.

 

[davesl708]

I am an electrical contractor. If you really dont want anything except lights and a few outlets, you can run a 110 out there, but to get 220 you only need 1 more wire. A 110 volt 20 amp circuit would require #8 copper wire for a 6.3% voltage drop, but if you add 1 extra wire for a 240 system, you can drop wire size to #10 copper for a 4.8% voltage drop and have better service.

If you really dont want more power, dont do it.

You can run water and electric in Same trench. Put water down 3 ft and fill with a foot of dirt. Then run electric. Keep a foot separation and direct buried has to be min 24" deep.

Here in north idaho, we bury water down 4-5 feet, then fill some dirt and run electrical 18-24" below surface level. 18" is if its on pipe.

Personally, i never use direct burial cause i have repaired so much of it over the years i despise it. I run conduit and thhn single runs of wire.

You can also check prices of running 1" conduit and #8 xhhw aluminum wire to a $40.00 6 space panel in barn. Sometimes it turns out as similar cost of urd direct burial, but affords protection of conduit. This would allow aprox 6% voltage drop.

Remember, pump and well and sewer installers run water and power in same trench all the time. Some local jurisdictions may have their own rules. Nec can care less.

Not sure what water burial depth requirements in your area is.

Also if you only want lights and outlets, you WILL HAVE TO replace the 50 amp breaker with one rated for the wire your running.

Just a question. Would not burying the electrical with the water cause problems in the future when you need to dig up the waterline?

 

[mapper]

Water line will probably be ok if installed correctly. If using black poly use at least 120 psi, or use pvc schedule 80. Bed the pipe in rock free soil or sand. Burying it at least 2 ft will put it below the frost line for western Wa. deeper will not hurt - less chance of damage from heavy equipment, fence posts, etc.
I had to replace both my power and water line from my pump house as the original installation (prior to our purchase) was done with 90# black poly and 12 gauge romex, buried about 18", in the same narrow trench. Wire was within an inch or less of the pipe. Pipe stared to leak and digging for pipe repairs resulted in nicking the Rolex, etc. Needless to say this resulted in a complete abandonment of the old pipe and wire and replacement in a deep ditch. A friend with a backhoe dug the ditch with a 24" bucket so I placed the pipe and wire on opposite sides of the ditch. Friend got a bit carried away with the depth so ended up with most of the ditch being about 4' deep. If I ever have to dig it up it's not going to be by hand! 20 years and no problems yet.

 

[grsthegreat]

Just a question. Would not burying the electrical with the water cause problems in the future when you need to dig up the waterline?

It could, but if you use poly waterline you wont have to dig it up for 100 years. All i was refering to was the code. There is NO NEC code prohibiting using a common trench as long as there is 12" separation. There could be local codes though. When well and sewer companies install their stuff, it always in a common trench....

 

[grsthegreat]

Water line will probably be ok if installed correctly. If using black poly use at least 120 psi, or use pvc schedule 80. Bed the pipe in rock free soil or sand. Burying it at least 2 ft will put it below the frost line for western Wa. deeper will not hurt - less chance of damage from heavy equipment, fence posts, etc.
I had to replace both my power and water line from my pump house as the original installation (prior to our purchase) was done with 90# black poly and 12 gauge romex, buried about 18", in the same narrow trench. Wire was within an inch or less of the pipe. Pipe stared to leak and digging for pipe repairs resulted in nicking the Rolex, etc. Needless to say this resulted in a complete abandonment of the old pipe and wire and replacement in a deep ditch. A friend with a backhoe dug the ditch with a 24" bucket so I placed the pipe and wire on opposite sides of the ditch. Friend got a bit carried away with the depth so ended up with most of the ditch being about 4' deep. If I ever have to dig it up it's not going to be by hand! 20 years and no problems yet.

Reminds me of my own house. I dug 5' deep trench and laid 200 psi poly pipe with the good brass fittings. Then filled 2 ft of dirt, then laid phone , ethernet,gas and power. I never have to worry about nicking anything doing post holes or whatever.
That 200 psi poly will syill be atound in 200 years. Its like 1/4" thick walls. The fittings were nearly $100 each... And massive. I only ran 2" pipe to all buildings. So everything underground is 2" diameter which meand i have great water flow to all buildings. I have buildings spread all over. Theres a 400 foot run to barn, 350' run to shop and a run between shop and carriage barn of 400 feet. Also placed frostfrees all over the place at same time.