Electrician question - Screw-in breakers?

[ultrarunner]

Gone through this many times and it was to shed older homes so I did a lot of service upgrades.

At that time the insurance only cared that home had 240 with a main circuit breaker…

Those homes with Edison Fuse sub panels only needed the S-type insert so a higher amp fuse could no longer be used…

All signed off by inspector and then PGE would run a new drop.

One of the hardware chains called Oles had the 100 amp kit with weatherhead and main breaker and I bought a lot of them…

Sometimes overthinking got me in trouble.

Funny thing is I still have single family homes circa 1922 with a single 30 amp Edison fuse main going to sub-panel with a 15 light and 20 plug circuit

 

[Larry Caldwell]

And just think you had to have power in most places before you could have indoor plumbing (to power the well pump).

Before rural electrification, it was common for upscale houses to have a water tower, either free standing or designed as a part of the house. A windmill pumped the water, and the first place that got indoor water was the kitchen. You could walk to the outhouse, but hauling the dishes outside didn't accomplish anything.

That said, an upscale house would have had a masonry foundation, though it was rare for the house to be bolted to it. Electricity was an afterthought, but so was insulation. It was not hard to string knob and tube with nothing but bare framing in the attic.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Sorry to post this, The History of Sears Kit Homes - The Craftsman Blog but your comment led me down a rabbit hole again. I've read about the Sears mail order homes before, but always am ready to read about old times.

I still find it sadly ironic that they got their start doing mail orders, yet couldn't keep up with online sales which were their ultimate demise. Even 40 years ago Sears was a great place to do business. When I was starting out I worked a decent paying job in summer, and in winter was working for minimum wage at an apple orchard. My Sears card allowed me to pay for things like unexpected auto repairs in the winter months, and pay them off the next summer.
I suppose that my Discover card is a continuance of Sears Financial, yet it isn't the same.

I still have a Sears credit card. It's administered by Citi.

 

[California]

... Electricity was an afterthought, but so was insulation. It was not hard to string knob and tube with nothing but bare framing in the attic.

Or in the 5.5 ft high, sort-of basement. No insulation and scary wiring additions. (The area under the house isn't used for anything).

Looks like the lighting was the first 'upgrade' then years later Romex was run from that attachment point to some new circuit. This little farmhouse is hopeless to bring up to code.

 

[LouNY]

Windmills are common in the midwest and west not so much in the northeast or south.
I only recall seeing two in this area. If the house had running water it was almost always piped
from a higher location often through wooden pipes, small lines had hole bored thru small logs
and the larger ones were banded wood stave lines. They still come across some of these in
larger water systems around.
And most old houses here had/have a laidup stone foundation and many of those had no mortar
untill they got tuck pointed in later years.

 

[CobyRupert]

To answer your question, yes a 15 amp breaker at the panel provides overcurrent protection. Redundant 15 amp fuses or breakers aren’t required. (Unless circuit is powering specific motor or HVAC loads.)
I’d jumper the fuse, but not the switch part of the local fuse box. That is, there may be situations, where you still need a local disconnect switch, such at a separate building, or motor where disconnect means is not lockable, etc..

 

[California]

To answer your question, yes a 15 amp breaker at the panel provides overcurrent protection. Redundant 15 amp fuses or breakers aren’t required. (Unless circuit is powering specific motor or HVAC loads.)
I’d jumper the fuse, but not the switch part of the local fuse box. That is, there may be situations, where you still need a local disconnect switch, such at a separate building, or motor where disconnect means is not lockable, etc..

Thanks. It just ocurred to me that with two fuses in the box, worst case is the amateur 'electrician' fused both the hot and the neutral. I need go into the dungeon pictured above with a voltmeter and check this!

 

[ultrarunner]

In the old main circuit from 1920 and prior both hot and neutral had individual Edison Fuse.

The problem I've found is when the original knob and tube is altered through the years... such as the lamp tap with twisted pair shown.

The one home I have remaining from 1922 I bought from original owner and it was all 1922... Electrical, High Leg Stove, Bath Fixtures, Yellow and Blue Counter Tile, Double Hung Windows, Basement Gravity Central Furnace... etc.

I did out of necessity upgrade bathroom and old tiled in claw foot us no more... as the wall mounted toilet tank...

In your case the simplest would be rewire... not using any existing and making it safe.

If we were closer I'd say let's get it done...

My brothers 1860 barn is like that before he cleaned it up... the ONLY time power was on us when he was inside and otherwise off with box locked...

 

[California]

I just looked at the fuse boxes.

The one in the shop has 12ga in and two 15 amp fuses out. One to lighting and one to shop outlets. Unconventional but I guess that makes sense. The lights would stay on if the drill press etc tripped its fuse. Safer that way.

The one under the house has 12ga in, then 15 amp fuses on both the hot and the neutral lines. Hot white, neutral black. That's backward, no? I'm going to jumper across the neutral fuse.

Everything I've seen is 12ga, so far. Maybe there were 20 amp fuses used initially then someone got concerned about the old wiring.


I ordered three Edison-base 15 amp breakers. Thanks to Diggin It for suggesting that solution.

 

[ultrarunner]

One issue with old knob and tube is no color coding and very old outlets not polarized...

The line tapped most likely without checking hot or neutral.

I know knob and tube gets a bad wrap but Utilities still use it and safer as far as rodents gnawing Romex which I have seen a fair share.

One old contractor started in the knob and tube era said the change had nothing to do with safety but came about because Romex was cheaper as in faster and less skill required.

He mentioned a kitchen grease fire that did a lot of damage including the floor above leaving only charred framing but the knob and tube still worked even with the insulation burned off.

Over fusing or worse the penny under the fuse is always a problem... just harder to do when you have to install a new circuit breaker.

I wonder if my 100 year old service will still be in use a hundred years from now?

When I bought the place there was a shoebox of brand new light bulbs that looked like they dated from the 1920's plus a 1922 toaster on the counter...

30 amp 120 volt service is enough to run a 3 bedroom 1 bath 1050 square feet Craftsman bungalow when gas is used for cooking and heating...

All those 100Watt light bulbs are now 12W LED... the light circuit never had it so easy in a hundred years...