Electrical / romex mess

[buckeyefarmer]

Moss, I expected…….

 

[MossRoad]

Moss, I expected…….

I'm the guy on the right.

 

[TBotNik]

We have a light on a pole in our driveway. Its in a center circle bordered by pavers. I want to replace the light with a water feature.

I turned power off, removed the light and pole, and found two romex lines. One was still hot (don't ask!) They are about 2 feet below current grade, and about 3 feet below what the new grade will be.

I need to move these lines as the new water feature would be sitting right on top of them. I wish they were long enough to get to an electrical box on the edge of the circle, but they are not nearly long enough. And I still need power out there for the new pump.

I know you are not supposed to put romex in conduit. Nor splice wires and have electric junction boxes underground. But I'm stumped on what else to do?

Any ideas?
View attachment 701068

 

[TBotNik]

Plowhog,

What you wrote shows your total lack of knowledge about electrical. You say just
the opposite of what a good electrician knows, which I am.

The actual preferred way to install underground electrical is in PVC watertight
conduit. And it is totally OK to use boxes (watertight PVC of course) in any
such conduit run. The problem is most DIY'rs do not know how to install the
PVC conduit making it watertignt.

See they think all glues are equal and they are not. Most glues require the
purple primer and any glue requiring that will, 100% of the time, leak. The
only glue that will be watertight 100% of the time (provided you clean both
parts of the joint with a damp cloth) is the "Christy's Red Hot Blue Glue".
You do not need any primer with that glue, just apply glue to both parts you
are joining and push or twist together.

Now about ROMEX! You cannot use normal romex for burying! It must be a
"buriable" rated romex. Normal ROMEX has a paper seperator. You can see that
just looking at the ends. Buriable ROMEX has a plastic seperator and an
additional outer layer. That is why it costs almost twice the price as normal
ROMEX.

Since you have 2 ckts (circuits) there the initial installer should have used
the PVC conduit. For safety I suggest you rerun it in the PVC conduit. Speaking
of safety, I'm guessing that the following two things are true:

1.) Your wires on both ckts are 12 AWG (12 gauge),
2.) Your runs are over 75 feet,

This means that even though the normal load for 12 AWG is 20 amps, the over 75
feet means you cannot put a load over 16 amps on those wires. If the motor in
the water feature pulls more than 16 amps you will have to rewire, at the breaker
box so that both wires are on the same breaker, which will typically be a 20
amp breaker, allowing you the full 20 amps to that new motor.

This is where you have to get an electrician involved for all motors have 2
amperage ratings, one for startup current and one for working current. The
working current is what has to match or be lower than the breaker on that ckt.

You can get both of you buriable lines into 3/4" conduit, but I would suggest
1-1/4" as the pulls will be so much easier and that will also allow for room
to add other ckts, if needed. When pulling any wire through conduit always add
a follow string, so you can pull any additional ckts you might need in the
future. To find the ckt that is live, use a helper, at the breaker box, and
with you, at the wires end, with a "sniffer", have the helper turn the breakers
off/then on one-by-one, till you find the one that was hot (sniffer will stop
beeping when that breaker is off). These "non-contact" sniffers sell for
$7-$35 at both Home Depot and Lowe's.

You mentioned a box some where in the vicinity of these 2 ckts. If that is fed
by buried PVC and large enough, I would run everything there, but await your
feedback on that!

Oh just a tickler question:
Most DIT'rs think the color of ground is always green. So what us the color of
the ground wire in a high voltage ckt (over 260 volts)?

You can google that!

Cheers!

TBNK

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Welcome to TBN. I think the OP got what he needed.

 

[Diggin It]

What you wrote shows your total lack of knowledge about electrical. You say just
the opposite of what a good electrician knows, which I am.


See they think all glues are equal and they are not. Most glues require the
purple primer and any glue requiring that will, 100% of the time, leak.

When properly done, PVC or CPVC joints are chemically bonded, fused to become one with each other. Two pieces meld together into one. They can't leak. How many millions of miles of PVC water pipe are out there under pressure and not leaking?

Now about ROMEX! You cannot use normal romex for burying! It must be a
"buriable" rated romex. Normal ROMEX has a paper seperator. You can see that
just looking at the ends. Buriable ROMEX has a plastic seperator and an
additional outer layer. That is why it costs almost twice the price as normal
ROMEX.

'Buriable rate Romex' is called UF and has been discussed here, with it having been determined that what the OP has in place is indeed UF.

You can get both of you buriable lines into 3/4" conduit, but I would suggest
1-1/4" as the pulls

To what end? OP has already stated they will NOT be making a new run under the driveway and brick work. The wire is good and all he wants to do is use something to protect any splice he has to make. The can be something buried and waterproofed or a simple conduit stub to an above ground box.

 

[plowhog]

What you wrote shows your total lack of knowledge about electrical.

You mentioned a box some where in the vicinity of these 2 ckts. If that is fed by buried PVC and large enough, I would run everything there ...

If I were an electrician, I would answer questions instead of asking them.

After contemplating your response, my guess is you check email less frequently than the other long-dormant members now rumbling back to life.

Now, I'm off to hunt down that box and buried PVC ....

 

[TBotNik]

When properly done, PVC or CPVC joints are chemically bonded, fused to become one with each other. Two pieces meld together into one. They can't leak. How many millions of miles of PVC water pipe are out there under pressure and not leaking?



'Buriable rate Romex' is called UF and has been discussed here, with it having been determined that what the OP has in place is indeed UF.


To what end? OP has already stated they will NOT be making a new run under the driveway and brick work. The wire is good and all he wants to do is use something to protect any splice he has to make. The can be something buried and waterproofed or a simple conduit stub to an above ground box.

Diggin It,

He can use a PVC box with the rubber clamping watertight seals to get this done. These watertight seals come with either a round or oblong seal. The oblong one will match his romex, so it the best for this application!

Cheers!

TBNK

 

[4570Man]

When properly done, PVC or CPVC joints are chemically bonded, fused to become one with each other. Two pieces meld together into one. They can't leak. How many millions of miles of PVC water pipe are out there under pressure and not leaking?



'Buriable rate Romex' is called UF and has been discussed here, with it having been determined that what the OP has in place is indeed UF.


To what end? OP has already stated they will NOT be making a new run under the driveway and brick work. The wire is good and all he wants to do is use something to protect any splice he has to make. The can be something buried and waterproofed or a simple conduit stub to an above ground box.

Nobody takes the effort to properly glue conduit myself included. 99 percent of the time the ends aren’t sealed so why bother?

 

[kinglake]

When properly done, PVC or CPVC joints are chemically bonded, fused to become one with each other. Two pieces meld together into one. They can't leak. How many millions of miles of PVC water pipe are out there under pressure and not leaking?

As 4570 said, it isn't that they leak, it is that the ends are not sealed which allows air movement within the conduit and therefore condensation. PVC buried underground is considered a wet location per the NEC for a very real reason. Water will end up within the conduit. For this exact reason is why romex is not allowed underground in conduit, it is a wet location.