Electrical question for someone who knows the codes

[Robert_in_NY]

Were working on converting an old 3 story building into a modern office building. Currently all were doing is putting offices in the first floor and in the future possibly the second floor. Total employees in this building is 23. We were looking at using shielded cable originally because it was commercial but called our electrical inspector we like to use in the area and he said because there was only 23 employees we could use standard Romex which we did. The building is going to have a suspended ceiling at 10' and we ran a raceway for some of the wires that needed to run above the ceiling then drop down to posts (steel I beams that support the second story) which lead to 7' walls. So you have romex exposed above the ceiling from where it jumps off the raceway to the post then down (inside the I beam) the steel post to the wall.

Well being a small town the local building inspector has been on a power trip. He wouldn't give us a permit when we first asked (even though all we needed a permit for was where we removed an 11' wide by 10' tall window and built a wall in its place with a small window in it). He needed to see the stamped prints first. So we brought the prints then he still wouldn't give us a permit till he looked them over and made sure they were right. But we were still allowed to work. Well this local building inspector told us he would only allow one electrical inspector to do inspections in the town. To our knowledge there is no law backing his claim so we used the inspector we usually use. Our electrical inspector showed up and passed us so we could start insulating and drywalling. Well today the building inspector arrived to check on what the building owners were doing on the second floor (more small town politics/drama) and entered the building without permission while everyone was out for lunch. We happened to be eating right across the street and seen him show up and head to the jobsite and enter. When we got there he was already on the second floor walking around. Then he came down to the first floor and was mad we didn't use his inspector and started saying the guy we use is retired (he isn't). Well he went on about how he wants us to call and pay his guy to inspect the job again (even though the drywall is up and first coat is on). When we disagreed he left, then returned a few minutes later and said we couldn't have romex exposed above a suspended ceiling and thats why he wanted us to use his inspector. So he is telling us we need to change it out. He quoted section 337 of the National Electric code. Well I went online and there is no section 337. 334 addresses this somewhat but the way I read it its referring to the romex being exposed coming through the suspended ceiling, not above it where its hidden from view (no different then being inside a wall).

So we are going to call our inspector in the morning but this is bothering me and I am hoping some of the other electricians on here or inspectors who know can tell me if what we did was wrong according to the NEC or if this building inspector is just full of it and just mad we didn't use his guy.

 

[grsthegreat]

Well im not sure about NY codes, but here in Idaho were allowed to use romex in buildings of low occupancy...HOWEVER we are not allowed to have exposed romex in a suspended ceiling.

When i have open suspended ceilings i run all my romex either into the attic space ( if available... and the portion within a suspended ceiling is hidden in a drywall chase) OR i transition to 1/2" steel flex in the area above the ceiling. Some jurisdictions allow either bx or mc cable here, but some consider this no better than romex in abrasion resistance.

I just did a school addition recently, and as it was a series of small rooms with limited occupancy, they allowed romex. We kept all wires within the walls and all switch legs to lighting and all travelers were in steel flex.

All passed easily.

Romex USED to be allowed to be exposed if above 8 foot from floor, but that is no longer allowed here. And it has never been allowed within a suspended ceiling. By code Romex is supposed to have a minimum 1-1/2" cover of drywall, or whatever (including depth of framing)

 

[AndyMA]

I'm not commenting on the code aspect of your post but I am asking a question about the inspector. Everywhere I have worked the "inspector" is one appointed by the town to be in that position and while they may have more than one inspector, all inspections need to be done by the town inspector. Is that different where you live?

Andy

 

[Craig Clayton]

I will not get into the Canadian Code because that will only confuse the subject at hand worse.

NMD7 ( Romex ) Should be for residential houses. As soon as it starts to look commercial I would always want to use AC ( BX ).

I had fun when I finished off my house I did it in 1/2" EMT in a wood framed house. When I finished off the basement I also used EMT and I had almost all the drywall wall on. I left three sheets open for the electrical inspector to look at. I also said if you are unsure just point to any sheet of drywall and I will remove it for your inspection. He walked over to the closest switch box with a plaster ring and gave it a shake and then he signed off complete.
I am sitting in the same house I just typed about.

Craig Clayton

 

[grsthegreat]

Yes, here all inspectors for electrical, mechanical and plumbing are STATE inspectors. The local jurisdictions have no authority.

 

[grsthegreat]

My entire house is wired in steel flex and metal boxes with bx runs for lighting.

Why you ask... cause im a commercial electrician with tons of leftover flex conduit , metal boxes and roll upon roll of #12 THHN laying around.

I wired a 4,000 SF house with left over stuff from years of commercial work. '

When the inspector came here, i was at work so my wife started to show him around. He saw all the steel flex, asked who i was, then signed off the paperwork and left. I had known him for awhile.....hes inspected alot of my work. :laughing:

I personally appreciate the state inspectors WAY more than local inspectors. At least this way i know what to expect no matter where im working, and dont have to contend with different town laws.. just q few miles apart. Man that would suck.

Here, no matter where in the state i work, i know what to expect.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I'm not commenting on the code aspect of your post but I am asking a question about the inspector. Everywhere I have worked the "inspector" is one appointed by the town to be in that position and while they may have more than one inspector, all inspections need to be done by the town inspector. Is that different where you live?

Andy

The electric has to be inspected by a state licensed electrical inspector. The local building inspector who is appointed has to pass a test to hold the job. Around here they don't actually inspect anything most of the time unless there is a complaint. Its kind of a joke really as they get paid to do a job but for the most part the ones in these small towns are there for the power trip. The guy today was bragging about shutting down some other job site because they didn't use his electrical inspector he prefers.

 

[grsthegreat]

i guess youd need to find out who's in charge of the insp bureau and find out if you HAVE to use his guy. I think that reeks of corruption if you have to use his guy..like you pay me i recommend you kind of thing.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Well im not sure about NY codes, but here in Idaho were allowed to use romex in buildings of low occupancy...HOWEVER we are not allowed to have exposed romex in a suspended ceiling.

When i have open suspended ceilings i run all my romex either into the attic space ( if available... and the portion within a suspended ceiling is hidden in a drywall chase) OR i transition to 1/2" steel flex in the area above the ceiling. Some jurisdictions allow either bx or mc cable here, but some consider this no better than romex in abrasion resistance.

I just did a school addition recently, and as it was a series of small rooms with limited occupancy, they allowed romex. We kept all wires within the walls and all switch legs to lighting and all travelers were in steel flex.

All passed easily.

Romex USED to be allowed to be exposed if above 8 foot from floor, but that is no longer allowed here. And it has never been allowed within a suspended ceiling. By code Romex is supposed to have a minimum 1-1/2" cover of drywall, or whatever (including depth of framing)

Thanks, if I run the romex into the metal flex would that be ok? The building inspector didn't tell us what to do, only that what we did do wasn't to code in this one area.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

i guess youd need to find out who's in charge of the insp bureau and find out if you HAVE to use his guy. I think that reeks of corruption if you have to use his guy..like you pay me i recommend you kind of thing.

I agree, the other inspector we usually use had warned us that this Building inspector has been trying to force everyone to use his preferred guy. There are two other electrical inspectors in neighboring towns that he is trying to keep out.

 

[grsthegreat]

Here in IDaho were can run it in flex...no issues. Im not sure about your jurisdiction.

I cant believe in the 21st Century you guys still using the "good old boy" network....

You must be in SOUTHERN NY.. hehe:thumbsup:

I would think ANY licensed inspector would work...but your 1st inspector shouldnt have approved the romex in t-bar soffit to begin with...so im at a loss.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Here in IDaho were can run it in flex...no issues. Im not sure about your jurisdiction.

I cant believe in the 21st Century you guys still using the "good old boy" network....

You must be in SOUTHERN NY.. hehe:thumbsup:

I would think ANY licensed inspector would work...but your 1st inspector shouldnt have approved the romex in t-bar soffit to begin with...so im at a loss.

Small town politics is the easiest way to describe it. With New York our state government usually drags its feet and ends up adopting what ever federal rules and regulations.

As for him missing it, well I don't know. He is a good guy but is old and wants to retire. It is possible he just overlooked it but we will contact him in the morning just to make sure we get it corrected properly.

 

[ultrarunner]

After the Oakland Fires Storm destroyed over 3,000 homes... the city allowed engineers to sign off on inspections... there just was not enough city inspectors to handle the work load... similar to the aftermath of the Loma Prieta earthquake.

At my last electrical inspection I saw two city cars pull up and 5 guys and one gal get out... all but one had clip boards...

The inspector said he was using my job as a training exercise for the new hires and then I commented on my "Luck"

Anyway... the inspection went fine... it was a service up grade from one meter to one house meter and 2 dwelling meters at a Duplex...

 

[hr3]

A question for you.. Are you a Licensed Electrian?? If so you should have the right to have a State inspector involved.. If we here in Maine have a problem like this we can call them for help..

 

[Robert_in_NY]

A question for you.. Are you a Licensed Electrian?? If so you should have the right to have a State inspector involved.. If we here in Maine have a problem like this we can call them for help..

No, in this area we only need to be licensed to do electrical work in the cities and that is from the cities themselves, not state. We don't do enough electrical work to warrant getting licensed as most of our work is lead abatement/remediation.

 

[dmccarty]

Sounds like the town inspector has some sort of money involvement with the inspector he is pushing.

We had a run in with a local inspector. The inspector had NO, zippo, none, nada qualifications for doing the job. We had not ONE but TWO different reports, both saying the same thing, from state certified professionals with masters level education on the subject. The local inspector at best went to HS.

Long story somewhat short, I knew the process we should be going through and I should not even be dealing with the inspector. At one point, after he failed two properties, the buyers, sellers, professional's etc, all disappeared leaving me and the inspector all alone. I got the very distinct impression if I had slipped him some money the problem would go away.

Instead I called the state who has the ultimate jurisdiction. I had been reading the book, the literal book, on the issue at hand and I knew the local inspector was a moron and did not know what he was doing. I also new the process and procedures we should be following.

I suspect the local professionals knew that the guy was corrupt and a moron but given that he could make their life hard they were limited in their options. I on the other hand was not so limited. I also think the state inspector knew what was up as well. The state came in, did the same inspection, told the local inspector that his interpretation of the tests and his test methods, were wrong. He did this in front of me, the sellers, and the other professionals.

I knew the people I had hired were correct because I had watched them work and I had read the book. The dip scat inspector did not have a clue.

What I never could figure out was he only trying to get money from me or was he getting paid buy another buyer who wanted the land. The land was selling cheap and there was a great deal of timber value. If they could get me out of the way they could make a lot of money.

In the end we got our permit and I had no further issues with the guy. Mostly because the county fired the guy. By chance I was in the county office and one of the employees mentioned to me that the inspector had been hired by the town. I got the distinct impression that the employee knew this guy was corrupt and could not believe he had been hired by the town. The ex inspector left the town position shortly thereafter.

I thought long and hard about going after the inspector. I am sure I was not the first person he tried to bribe nor the last. But the only way I could get him was to get the SBI to take the case, most likely wear a wire for them, and spend a great deal of my time. Time I did not have.

A bigger problem is that this guy has been living in the county for generations. His family name is all over the place. If I went after him it was game on. I could be running into his family all over the place in unexpected ways which could cause problems. I figured if I went after him I would have to make it really ugly. I mean take his pension put him in jail ugly. This guy was at least in his 60's and maybe older. If it was perceived that *** I *** had cost him his job then I had better do it in such a manner that they did not want to mess with me in the future. But of course, the uglier it was, the more likely we would have problems.

Danged if I do, danged if I don't. So I punted and hoped that he would reap the seeds he had sowed.

And shortly there after he was fired. :thumbsup:

In your situation, I would be danged sure of what is required. Some of this stuff is open to interpretation. If you are right then you have to figure out how to go around the local inspector. But if you go around him, you need to think about what other problems you are going to have with this guy.

Who is his boss? Is there a state body that overseas these inspection rules? What are the rules and procedures?

If he starts jerking you around, you have options on what to do based on the above. On the other hand, if he is the only recourse you are screwed.

We had a disagreement with the house inspector regarding the windows in two rooms of the house. In the end we had to replace the windows. I think my opinion, along with the window seller and our builder, who was a PE and used to WRITE the state code, were correct. But in the end it was cheaper to shut up, bite the bullet, and move on. The build, the window supplier, and I all ate some money, but it was just better to move on.

Not a battle worth fighting.

Later,
Dan

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Sounds like the town inspector has some sort of money involvement with the inspector he is pushing.

We had a run in with a local inspector. The inspector had NO, zippo, none, nada qualifications for doing the job. We had not ONE but TWO different reports, both saying the same thing, from state certified professionals with masters level education on the subject. The local inspector at best went to HS.

Long story somewhat short, I knew the process we should be going through and I should not even be dealing with the inspector. At one point, after he failed two properties, the buyers, sellers, professional's etc, all disappeared leaving me and the inspector all alone. I got the very distinct impression if I had slipped him some money the problem would go away.

Instead I called the state who has the ultimate jurisdiction. I had been reading the book, the literal book, on the issue at hand and I knew the local inspector was a moron and did not know what he was doing. I also new the process and procedures we should be following.

I suspect the local professionals knew that the guy was corrupt and a moron but given that he could make their life hard they were limited in their options. I on the other hand was not so limited. I also think the state inspector knew what was up as well. The state came in, did the same inspection, told the local inspector that his interpretation of the tests and his test methods, were wrong. He did this in front of me, the sellers, and the other professionals.

I knew the people I had hired were correct because I had watched them work and I had read the book. The dip scat inspector did not have a clue.

What I never could figure out was he only trying to get money from me or was he getting paid buy another buyer who wanted the land. The land was selling cheap and there was a great deal of timber value. If they could get me out of the way they could make a lot of money.

In the end we got our permit and I had no further issues with the guy. Mostly because the county fired the guy. By chance I was in the county office and one of the employees mentioned to me that the inspector had been hired by the town. I got the distinct impression that the employee knew this guy was corrupt and could not believe he had been hired by the town. The ex inspector left the town position shortly thereafter.

I thought long and hard about going after the inspector. I am sure I was not the first person he tried to bribe nor the last. But the only way I could get him was to get the SBI to take the case, most likely wear a wire for them, and spend a great deal of my time. Time I did not have.

A bigger problem is that this guy has been living in the county for generations. His family name is all over the place. If I went after him it was game on. I could be running into his family all over the place in unexpected ways which could cause problems. I figured if I went after him I would have to make it really ugly. I mean take his pension put him in jail ugly. This guy was at least in his 60's and maybe older. If it was perceived that *** I *** had cost him his job then I had better do it in such a manner that they did not want to mess with me in the future. But of course, the uglier it was, the more likely we would have problems.

Danged if I do, danged if I don't. So I punted and hoped that he would reap the seeds he had sowed.

And shortly there after he was fired. :thumbsup:

In your situation, I would be danged sure of what is required. Some of this stuff is open to interpretation. If you are right then you have to figure out how to go around the local inspector. But if you go around him, you need to think about what other problems you are going to have with this guy.

Who is his boss? Is there a state body that overseas these inspection rules? What are the rules and procedures?

If he starts jerking you around, you have options on what to do based on the above. On the other hand, if he is the only recourse you are screwed.

We had a disagreement with the house inspector regarding the windows in two rooms of the house. In the end we had to replace the windows. I think my opinion, along with the window seller and our builder, who was a PE and used to WRITE the state code, were correct. But in the end it was cheaper to shut up, bite the bullet, and move on. The build, the window supplier, and I all ate some money, but it was just better to move on.

Not a battle worth fighting.

Later,
Dan

I understand completely. I know most codes are subject to interpretation but I also know that my interpretation doesn't matter. They only guys interpretation that matters is the one with the final say. Since I am low on the list I do my best to not fight with inspectors, just to engage them in conversation to understand how and why they interpret things differently. This situation isn't a big deal as its easily fixed with the wiring. I just don't agree with the building inspector (who is a town employee) telling us we need to use a private electrical inspector that he chooses even though the other electrical inspectors are licensed to work in this area as well. But as you said, we have to balance what battles to fight for the most part as if you get on the inspectors bad side all it does is cost you money. Even if your right you can end up having a lot of money tied up in legal fees, jobsite being shut down costing money and so on so forth.

 

[ultrarunner]

I generally take the we will do whatever needs to be done to address any issues...

My friend on the other hand is an owner builder and very successful... he will fight tooth and nail and he has never lost unless you count all the time he spends fighting.

Inspectors have become wary of Owner Builders because a license contractor has a payroll to meet and doesn't get paid till the job is signed off...

Owner Builders such as my friend use their own money, no banks financing in the building process... he also does high end homes and usually never more then two at the same time... he has camped at city hall and brought issues to the city council and the State...

Like I said, he has never lost a fight... sadly, I have other commitments and must be pragmatic...

I would draw the line at payoffs... no matter what.

One inspector that lost his job as a result of my friend would casually mention someone that needed electrical or plumbing work and say something I would sure appreciate it if you could help this person out... in other words take care of a third party for me and things will be streamlined... so no money ever exchanged hands directly and in the investigation the inspector said the contractor did such good work he was only recommending him to others.

 

[grsthegreat]

Not sure who has final say in your area, but about 5 years ago i had a major row over an inspector and his relentless UL sticker push on 20 YO pieces of equipment.

I finally contacted the governors office and lodged a complaint. I guess it got sent down the food chain, cause less than 1 month later the HEAD district inspector came to look at the job...and he passed it.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I know we need this building inspector to sign off on the job before they can move into the offices so were kind of in a bad spot. Can't fight too much with him when the owners want to be moved in by a certain date. We get shut down or if he refuses to issue the occupancy permit then it drags things out and no one wins in that point. If it is something serious though and where he really crosses the line then it will be worth fighting but little things you have to just nod and smile. :laughing: