Electrical help needed

[Pooh_Bear]

I have a sump pump. According to the plate on the motor it is 230v and 9 amps.
I'm trying to find the smallest wire I can use to power it.
I'm using this site to do my calculations.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Scroll down near the bottom to get the online calculator.

I picked copper wire. 240v single phase. length=500 feet. Amps=9
According to that, looks like I can use 10 AWG wire. Is that right.
I asked on a forum of electricians and they said 4awg or at the most 6awg.
10 awg is out of my budget. Forget 4 and 6.
I mite could scrounge up enough 10-2 romex. Mite have to do some splicing.

This is my sump pump. The model 4290. Got it for $20 out of the classifieds.
http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/products/agricultural/agricultural.htm

What do y'all say. can it be done somehow.

Thanks.

Pooh Bear

 

[bigdad]

Is your run of wire 500 feet? If it is, you will have loss in the distance. Copper has really gotten high priced lately..... Sounds like the wire size that you need is going to cost more than the pump.

Under load, your pump will drop your voltage. Low voltage is very hard on motors. Power company "brown-outs" (Low Voltage) raise the devil with motors...even fridges etc.

240 VAC at 9 continuous amps..... #8 wire and #6 would be better.

Be careful!

 

[BB_TX]

Here is another voltage drop calculator.

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm

According to it, 4 ga is correct.

 

[Farwell]

Pooh Bear,
You will probably be ok with the #10 wire for the 500 foot run as long as you go with copper and don't use the pump very often. More than likely the the 9amps on the motor plate is starting amperage and not contiuous running amperage. #8 copper is a better choice. Check the price of aluminum wire, you will have to go to a larger sized wire but the cost may be less.
If the sump pump is used frequently you will have to go to a bigger wire.
IMO
Farwell

 

[BB_TX]

Oops. When I tried the voltage calculator I linked, I forgot to change the voltage. At 240 v, it shows #8 to be correct.

 

[Pooh_Bear]

At this point I don't expect it to get frequent use.
Mostly gonna use it to fill a swimming pool.
We have well water and don't want risk draining it dry and ruining the pump.
And I can't leave the pump down at the river. it would get stolen.
And this sucker's HEAVY. I ain't gonna be toting it around much.

I got a neighbor who wants to put a pump down at the river permanently
and pump water across our property up to his barn for his cows.
If he ever does it he said I could tee off his line for water.

Pooh Bear

 

[woodlot]

The price of 1500' (or 2000' if your going to run a bonding wire) 6 AWG is going to be astrimonical, I'd say in the neighborhood of $1.50-$1.75 a foot, so about 3 grand for your wire.

At that price I'd look into a generator. Fire it up when you need to run the pump. I'd bet you can get a pretty @&&-kicking generator for 3k. You'd probibly be able to get one that would suit your needs for 1200.

 

[BobRip]

Pooh Bear,
You will probably be ok with the #10 wire for the 500 foot run as long as you go with copper and don't use the pump very often. More than likely the the 9amps on the motor plate is starting amperage and not contiuous running amperage. #8 copper is a better choice. Check the price of aluminum wire, you will have to go to a larger sized wire but the cost may be less.
If the sump pump is used frequently you will have to go to a bigger wire.
IMO
Farwell

I don't think that rating is starting current. Most motors that I have seen show running amps on them. This is probably about a 1.25 horse power motor.
Even if you use it intermittenly you will probably have an issue. It probably will not start. The generator is probably a good idea. I would check with the manufacturers data on wire size and length. It may be designed for long wire runs. My well motor is rate at 9 amps 240 volts and is 1.25 horsepower. I have mostly 10 guage wire on it that is about 400 feet long.

 

[Pooh_Bear]

It's a 1 hp motor.

I have considered all kinds of crazy ideas to get power down to the river.
The power company is using what looks like steel cable for high voltage transmission lines.
So why can't I do the same thing.
Get some steel cable and run it thru PVC pipe underground for most of the distance.
I have also considered barbless fence wire. And rebar.
All are much cheaper than copper wire. Or aluminum wire.

I have also considered building a big gazebo down near the river
and let the power company run wire down there and place a meter.
Then it would only be less than 200 feet to the river.
The pump has a 50 foot power cord on it.
So I would only need about 150 feet of wire or extension cord.
Wouldn't a big pavilion type gazebo look great down in the corner of the
yard next to that big walnut tree at the curve in the road.
http://web.infoave.net/~poohbear2767/panorama.htm (second picture down, left side)
Of course then there is the cost of the gazebo and all that 3inch pvc conduit.

Anybody got any better ideas.

Pooh Bear

 

[bigdad]

Hey Pooh-Bear.....

I like Woodlot's idea of the generator (for the money). As for the power company and the steel wire......they are probably running 12KV on that stuff.....that's before they transform it down for consumer use.

If you have folks in your neigborhood that are low enough to swipe your pump......they will most certainly make off with your copper or even aluminium wire. Believe me, it's not just your neighborhood either. Sad ain't it.

Good luck and again....BE CAREFUL!

 

[PineRidge]

It's a 1 hp motor.

I have considered all kinds of crazy ideas to get power down to the river.
The power company is using what looks like steel cable for high voltage transmission lines.
So why can't I do the same thing.
Get some steel cable and run it thru PVC pipe underground for most of the distance.
I have also considered barbless fence wire. And rebar.
All are much cheaper than copper wire. Or aluminum wire.

I have also considered building a big gazebo down near the river
and let the power company run wire down there and place a meter.
Then it would only be less than 200 feet to the river.
The pump has a 50 foot power cord on it.
So I would only need about 150 feet of wire or extension cord.
Wouldn't a big pavilion type gazebo look great down in the corner of the
yard next to that big walnut tree at the curve in the road.
http://web.infoave.net/~poohbear2767/panorama.htm (second picture down, left side)
Of course then there is the cost of the gazebo and all that 3inch pvc conduit.

Anybody got any better ideas.

Pooh Bear

I respectfully suggest that if you don't understand electricity and associated wiring that you not go there period. Forget steel and rebar. And any circuit that runs to water needs to be protected with a GFCI regardless. This is for your protection so you don't get electrocuted.

 

[Pooh_Bear]

I respectfully suggest that if you don't understand electricity and associated wiring that you not go there period. Forget steel and rebar. And any circuit that runs to water needs to be protected with a GFCI regardless. This is for your protection so you don't get electrocuted.

I appreciate your suggestion. I have a fairly good knowledge of electricity.
What I know about the NEC wouldn't fill a thimble.
Safety is a primary concern.
I do know that iron and steel will conduct electricity.
The calculations show that 1/2 inch rebar would work nicely.
But alas, that is still too expensive to run that far.
Can't find any data on resistivity of steel cable or barbwire fence.
Did I mention that all of these were crazy ideas?
I may have fluff for brains but I'm still smarter than the average bear.
I am also considering alternatives that don't involve electricity.
Check the implements forum for those ideas.

Pooh Bear

 

[BobRip]

The overhead stuff is aluminum with steel core wire (I believe).

Bob Rip

 

[Pooh_Bear]

Is that the stuff from the transformer to the meter,
or is that the higher voltage transmission lines.
We had a tree fall across some transmission lines out the road from us last year.
I went out and watched as they cleaned up the mess.
The cable looked like 1 inch thick steel rope. No insulation.
I asked one of the workers if that was normal to not have insulation on electric
carrying wire and he said yes. Only the wire from the transformer to the meter was insulated.
Sounded strange to me but I didn't question it.
If they can use steel rope to feed whole neighborhoods
then why can't I use it to feed one 1hp motor.

Called about 10-2 with ground romex this morning.
250 foot roll was approx $130.
500 feet of 6-2 wire was approx $1100.

I'm liking the PTO pump option better and better.

Pooh Bear

 

[VinnieNC]

Pooh,

I have been following your thread on getting water from your creek to your house via electric pump, PTO sprayer pump, etc. I feel your pain on not wanting to spend the $$$. Other that hauling it a bucket at a time, you are going to have a certain expense to do it safely AND reliably.

Since you are thinking PTO powered, might I suggest a larger PTO pump? I am thinking of the type used to irigate from farm ponds. You can find them a farm auctions, ebay, etc. I would think you could run your PTO slower than 540 if the output is too high.

Black PE pipe (hose?) on the 500 foot rolls is fairly cheap. You could run it on top of the ground or bury it and leave the ends out for connections when needed.

As another option, the generator idea may be a good one too. I feel confident you could use the generator for more than just the pump from time to time.

I am interested to hear what you decide on.

-Vinnie

 

[Bill_C]

The high-voltage lines are not steel, they are aluminum or aluminum with a steel core. The steel core is used for long-span runs solely to give the wire some strength to handle its own weight. The aluminum is tightly clad to the iron.

Using steel or iron as a conductor is a lousy idea. First, the resistance of steel or iron is much greater than that of copper or aluminum. Much, much greater. Sure, it conducts, but not very well. The increased resistance means a high voltage drop, so you lose a lot of your power (in the form of heat in the steel conductor)...Very inefficient. A second problem is the tendency for steel and iron to rust, particularly at connections. Even a tiny film of rust will not conduct electricity. A third problem, sorta related to rust, is the galvanic reaction of iron. When electrical current is passed through iron, it becomes a cathode (I believe it becomes the cathode, perhaps the anode, my memory's fuzzy) if there's any moisture or other metals in the vicinity. This tends to make the iron or steel disappear quite rapidly. Fourth, it would seem to me that it would be almost impossible to completely, safely insulate the iron or steel.

NEC Code, Section 110-5 says "Conductors normally used to carry current shall be of copper unless otherwise provided in this Code". Aluminum conductors are permitted in Article 310. Section 110-14 prohibits dissimilar metals for electrical connections unless specifically identified for the purpose and conditions of use.

 

[Pooh_Bear]

Yes, the resistance of iron is very high.
I was imagining connecting sections of rebar and running it thru PVC pipe.
I'm not going to do it. But it was an intriguing idea.

I keep looking for PTO pumps. Considered a Hypro pump.
I can find those on ebay for cheap. But not high volume water flow.
Too much gas usage for too little output.
I have been looking for other pumps. But they have been hard to find.
And what I do find is out of my price range.

I like the generator idea the best so far. I could use it for other stuff too.

I already have the 500 feet of 1 inch black poly pipe.

Pooh Bear

 

[Farwell]

PoohBear,
It sounds like you are going to use the pump a lot more than I originally understood and I did not know that you were using a 1hp motor. #10 wire will not do what you want.
A generator is probably going to be more than you want to spend but a gas or diesel driven pump may be less expensive than the size wire you will need and you can find them used or maybe get a pto driven pump that will work.
Farwell

 

[Bill_C]

How about getting an air-operated pump instead? You might be able to find a diapragm pump on Ebay (some folks call these a huff-and-puff pump, cause that's what they sound like).

It'd be a lot cheaper to run a second PVC line for the air than it would be to wire up heavy-gauge wire. Of course, you need an air compressor but I'm guessing you already have one.

 

[Keoke]

It's a 1 hp motor.

I have considered all kinds of crazy ideas to get power down to the river.
The power company is using what looks like steel cable for high voltage transmission lines.
So why can't I do the same thing.
Get some steel cable and run it thru PVC pipe underground for most of the distance.
I have also considered barbless fence wire. And rebar.
All are much cheaper than copper wire. Or aluminum wire.

I have also considered building a big gazebo down near the river
and let the power company run wire down there and place a meter.
Then it would only be less than 200 feet to the river.
The pump has a 50 foot power cord on it.
So I would only need about 150 feet of wire or extension cord.
Wouldn't a big pavilion type gazebo look great down in the corner of the
yard next to that big walnut tree at the curve in the road.
http://web.infoave.net/~poohbear2767/panorama.htm (second picture down, left side)
Of course then there is the cost of the gazebo and all that 3inch pvc conduit.

Anybody got any better ideas.

Pooh Bear

Pooh Bear, IF your local electrical code permits, big if here, consider running two 10 gauge UF (direct burial cables) in parallel with each other. Solder wires together at both ends for easier placement under screws and clear identification. This is not the best way to go but may be the cheapest IF allowed. The amp capacity of these double-up conductors will be in line with what you need at the pump. If you want 110v at the gazebo don't forget to run the 3rd wire (white neutral) as well. Also, it may be a good idea to sink a grounding rod at the pump location since you have a long run from your box.

cheers,
keoke