dump valve question

[muddstopper]

Been away for a few days. I appreciate the advise given, but from some of the replies I feel I havnt properly expressed what I am trying to do.

I am building a firewood processor. I am using my current splitter to do a little testing with. My splitter had a 4in cyl on it and had plenty of power and speed, but the processor plans call for a little more power for a multisplit wedge and of course more speed is desired as well. I bought the 5in cylinder for the processor and installed it on my current splitter and I bought a 28gpm 2stage pump. I installed both of these items on my current splitter to do testing with. I havent built the splitter for the processor yet. I have a 25hp on my splitter so Hp isnt an issue. My current cycle times are about 12sec for a 24in stroke. Fast enought if your feeding rounds by hand, but not the speed I desire for a processor. I havent flow checked the pump so I am not positive I have the full 28gpm as advertised. I suspect not, but i dont own a flow meter. I also just have a gut feeling I have a restriction in oil flow somewhere as it just doesnt seem to have the smooth operation I am used to feeling. Sort of sounds like oil dumping over a relief, but not really the loud squeal either. I am using 3/4 hose and #12jic fittings, my control valve is rated at 25gpm, cyl and valve ports are 3/4npt. I feel like My oil flow is pretty close to the capacity of my control valve and hoses so I am just looking for someway to return oil to tank, cheaply since this is just a test, before I start laying out cash for bigger hoses, valves and whatever else it might take to speed this thing up. After testing is completed, I plan on returning my current splitter back to its original configuration, 4in bore, 14gpm pump. I will take what I have learned and any additional parts I might purchase and use them on the processor when it gets built.

If the dump valve wont help with speed, I wont buy one, but if a simple test just using a ball valve, or in this case a selniod control valve I have laying on the shelf, then It wont work. If it does work, then I will open up the ports on the cylinder, purchase a bigger control valve and use bigger hoses on the processor build.

 

[J_J]

I believe your answer might be another pump in parallel and both with a check valve, sucking fluid from the same reservoir.

I also believe the cyl ports will be the limiting factor.

Here is a 1 in ball valve.

To flow 30 GPM's, you need a min of 1 in hose.

1" NPT CARBON STEEL 5000 PSI BALL VALVE

 

[oldnslo]

Muddstopper,
A cycle time of 12 seconds with your 5 x 2 x24 cylinder is approx 19 GPM flow. This is not allowing for any stop time at end of stroke. I believe you have stated that you have not been running your motor at full throttle which would reduce the flow output. Have you installed a gauge at the outlet of the pump? This is the point at which the pump uses for reference to shift from hi flow to low flow. If you are close to that set point you could be loosing some flow across the pump unloading valve.

If you are hearing a whistling noise like have you felt the hoses, valve, etc. for warm or hot spots. Fluid escaping under pressure creates heat and if my calculator is correct you are loosing several GPM some where.

Your 3/4" hose will handle the 28 GPM with around 2 PSI per foot pressure drop.

For wood processor do you have a second pump for running the saw, conveyor, etc.?

 

[Scooby074]

Do post up your project when you start it. I want to convert my splitter to a light processor too.

 

[muddstopper]

Muddstopper,
A cycle time of 12 seconds with your 5 x 2 x24 cylinder is approx 19 GPM flow. This is not allowing for any stop time at end of stroke. I believe you have stated that you have not been running your motor at full throttle which would reduce the flow output. Have you installed a gauge at the outlet of the pump? This is the point at which the pump uses for reference to shift from hi flow to low flow. If you are close to that set point you could be loosing some flow across the pump unloading valve.

If you are hearing a whistling noise like have you felt the hoses, valve, etc. for warm or hot spots. Fluid escaping under pressure creates heat and if my calculator is correct you are loosing several GPM some where.

Your 3/4" hose will handle the 28 GPM with around 2 PSI per foot pressure drop.

For wood processor do you have a second pump for running the saw, conveyor, etc.?

when I timed the cycle times, I was running the engine at full throttle. I dont normally run full throttle when working because I usually split by myself and i cant keep up with the machine even at half throttle. I am sort of oldnslo myself.

Not really hearing whistling noises, its just one of those things where you know something isnt quite right, but dont know what it is.

Pumps on the processor will be the 28gpm for the cylinder, a 25-30gpm for the saw, and a additional pump for the conveyors, log clamp and any other hydraulic functions I find I need (want). Probably run some kind of double pump for the big saw motor pump and the smaller pump for the accessories.

I am building with what i can find, trying not to buy to many items new to keep cost down. Doing things this way sometimes means figureing ways around obsticals. Ways around sometimes cost more than doing it right the first time, and take longer than picking up a part and bolting it on. As long as I get free, or nearly free, parts, I'll keep trying the workarounds. This is not a project i need completed tomorrow so time and my labor arent all that important.

 

[muddstopper]

Do post up your project when you start it. I want to convert my splitter to a light processor too.

Scooby, I have been sourceing parts for a couple of years now to build my processor with. Along the way this small project has morphed into a monster. For someone that just wants to make things a little easier and isnt concerned on max production, I think a simple winch design with a good chainsaw would work pretty good. I think the company is Wallstien, (sp) that makes a small processor that uses a winch to skid the log upon to a table and uses a chainsaw mounted on a swivel to cut the rounds. The rounds fall into the splitter to be split. Pretty simple design and easy to copy. I can see it as a work saver for a homeowner that wants to split their own supply of firewood, and maybe split for a few friends and neighbors.

That is what my processor build started out as, but the longer I put off the actual build, the more this thing has grown. I ran across a backhoe attachment pretty cheap and decided I could use this to build a knuckle boom loader for the processor. I found a 58hp diesel engine, more than enough power to run every thing. Traded for a piece of W8-Hbeam. Had a heavy 18ft trailer to mount everything on. Anyways, every time I would run across a part that could be used to make a decent high production processor, my plans for the build have been changed. Not sure for the better, but it is what it is. I ran across a couple of belt conveyors at a old sawmill the other day. One 15ft and the other 18ft. Guy wanted $100 apiece. I bought both of them. I have spent about $1200-$1500 so far and just about have every thing I need to start assembling this beast. For $1500, I could have bought a new winch and chainsaw, added them to my current splitter and be out their processing firewood right now. Are you sure you want to start a processor build, LOL. My advise is if you do, make your plans, stick to them, and build it as fast as possible. Cause if you think about it for a couple of years as I have, your wants can quickly outgrow your actual needs.

I do plan on starting a new thread once i actually get started on the processor build. Probably get started this winter, or maybe spring. the sooner I get started, the quicker the design gets locked in. I am already looking for a even bigger engine, think I have a buddy that wants to sell a B6 Cummins. Pump a lot of oil with that kind of HP.

 

[Scooby074]

Scooby, I have been sourceing parts for a couple of years now to build my processor with. Along the way this small project has morphed into a monster. For someone that just wants to make things a little easier and isnt concerned on max production, I think a simple winch design with a good chainsaw would work pretty good. I think the company is Wallstien, (sp) that makes a small processor that uses a winch to skid the log upon to a table and uses a chainsaw mounted on a swivel to cut the rounds. The rounds fall into the splitter to be split. Pretty simple design and easy to copy. I can see it as a work saver for a homeowner that wants to split their own supply of firewood, and maybe split for a few friends and neighbors.

That is what my processor build started out as, but the longer I put off the actual build, the more this thing has grown. I ran across a backhoe attachment pretty cheap and decided I could use this to build a knuckle boom loader for the processor. I found a 58hp diesel engine, more than enough power to run every thing. Traded for a piece of W8-Hbeam. Had a heavy 18ft trailer to mount everything on. Anyways, every time I would run across a part that could be used to make a decent high production processor, my plans for the build have been changed. Not sure for the better, but it is what it is. I ran across a couple of belt conveyors at a old sawmill the other day. One 15ft and the other 18ft. Guy wanted $100 apiece. I bought both of them. I have spent about $1200-$1500 so far and just about have every thing I need to start assembling this beast. For $1500, I could have bought a new winch and chainsaw, added them to my current splitter and be out their processing firewood right now. Are you sure you want to start a processor build, LOL. My advise is if you do, make your plans, stick to them, and build it as fast as possible. Cause if you think about it for a couple of years as I have, your wants can quickly outgrow your actual needs.

I do plan on starting a new thread once i actually get started on the processor build. Probably get started this winter, or maybe spring. the sooner I get started, the quicker the design gets locked in. I am already looking for a even bigger engine, think I have a buddy that wants to sell a B6 Cummins. Pump a lot of oil with that kind of HP.

I saw that wallenstein unit before. Its an interesting concept for sure.

Have you found a saw motor yet? Are you going with a highspeed axial piston , saw specific motor, like a Parker f11 or a generic, slow speed gear motor?

Id love an f11 but the cost on them is very high. You might want to have a look at Glastron13's(?) processor build thread and see what issues he had.

Ive been torn between the complexity and expense of going with a hydraulic saw vs direct drive via an electric clutch off the gas engine. Some of the smaller euro processors use an electric clutch/direct drive setup. Only issue there for me is clutch life.

 

[muddstopper]

For an electric clutch setup, I would go to Warner Electric, 815-389-3711. If you talk to the engineers, they can probably spec out a clutch that would hold up to the rigards of a chainsaw. I found Warner clutch's to hold up better than the Ogrua commonly found on ZTR's.

I would love to find a F11 motor, but in my area, there isnt much demand for harvester saws. Nobody does that kind of logging. Skidders and buck saws are about all you can find. I am still searching for spec on a Procline piston motor I have. I think it is a 1.3 cuin motor and will give me around 4400rpms with 25gpm. Never have been able to spec this motor out, but generic specs suggest speeds of 4800rpms to be within tolerance. This should give me about 29hp at the saw at 2000psi. I chose a 13tooth sprocket and 18h 404 chain. I did the math, forgot exact numbers, but should be around 6000fpm of chain speed. 9000fpm being the max recommended for this chain. For comparison, the large husquvarnia saw with the 404 chain is only 8.5hp and turns around 8000rpms. My saw should cut well, but without exact specs, I have been hesitant to hook it up to anything to try it out.

I think a direct drive would work well, but might be a little complex mounting and gearing it to the correct speed. I have seen a few on youtube made this way. Lots of belts, pullies, and tensioners. I think I am going to go ahead and make a mount for my saw and give it a whirl. If it blows, I just need to be standing out of the way.

 

[SpringHollow]

Did you ever run the test? I know this is an old thread but I found it because I am considering a dump valve. I do not know if it significantly decreases cycle time but I am considering it because it should decrease heat production if I use a 50 gpm dump valve versus a 25 GPM control valve. I am planning for a 28 GPM pump. For the cylinder I am currently looking at, that means a 34 GPM return flow.

Ken

 

[muddstopper]

Did you ever run the test? I know this is an old thread but I found it because I am considering a dump valve. I do not know if it significantly decreases cycle time but I am considering it because it should decrease heat production if I use a 50 gpm dump valve versus a 25 GPM control valve. I am planning for a 28 GPM pump. For the cylinder I am currently looking at, that means a 34 GPM return flow.

Ken

No, never ran the test. As this build has been taking a long time to come together, a lot of things changed. Right not, the current plans call for 2-4.5in bore cylinders, a parker v70 air over hydraulic control valve, rated for 70gpm, and a three section pump providing 60gpm just for the splitter. Had to dump the little iszusu 51hp diesel engine and am still searching for something around 190hp. Piece of advice for anyone wanting to build their own processor, Pick a plan and stick to it. My plans have changed so many times its starting to not be fun anymore. On the other hand, I have actually started the build and once complete, its going to be one heck of a monster processor. I have done plenty of research and I still expect a few bumps along the way, but at least Its starting to come together.